[THuckaby2]

Rich:

What I meant was if he was looking for DIFFERENT courses, he'd go for the heathland courses or parkland.... Oh, I'm sure the links in England that are suggested are quite different than those in Scotland (I have been to Birkdale, right on brother, that is quite different in look and feel), just as Carnoustie is very different from Muirfield and from N. Berwick... I never said otherwise (or at least I didn't intend to!).  But seeing different types of courses didn't seem to be his goal, it was to see more LINKS.  And given his predilection for the big names, and his desire for logistical ease... well...

Hopefully this makes better sense, a skill which doesn't seem to be my strongsuit this morning.

TH

[Paul Turner]

Tom

I know you cherish your Celtic heritage and are possibly worried that we might be leading Craig off down an Anglo path; but you have to remember that Cornwall isn't really a part of England, so it's the perfect compromise.  

David

Curious about Trevose, of course because it's Colt's.  I've only seen a few pics.  Heard a whole range of reviews.  From what I can make out, the course suffers from not having the spectacular dunes of say St Enodoc, being rather flat and lacking the humps and hollows.  I wonder if it's in the Elie mould?  I did see a pic of a par 3 (3rd or 7th, I think) across a stream valley; it looked super.  

One chap I know, who's well travelled, thought it was a fine foil to St Enodoc.

Spectacular views at least.

[THuckaby2]

Your wisdom is exemplary as always, Paul.  Cornwall it is!  

I think the best line in all of this is Jack's:  "I hate having too many good choices.  Makes deciding too hard."

These are all great choices most definitely.

TH

[jack marr]

If you do come into Shannon Airport, wear check pants, a golf glove and golf t-shirt, for fear they think you're an army man going to war. Careful where you point your clubs.

[Craig James]

A new piece of information...  Got an email this morning from Ballybunion offering me a couple of tee times (one on the Old Course, one on the Cashen Course)...  I'm tempted to go for that because I know tee times at Ballybunion can be hard to come by...

If I confirm those tee times, I'm thinking of adding Dooks, and Doonbeg (or perhaps Lahinch - I've played there before and loved it) or perhaps Tralee, purely for the spectacle...  

Any thoughts about Ballybunion's neighboring courses?  And any thoughts about where to stay if one is playing at Ballybunion, et. al.?

Finally, all this talk of England has really piqued my interest...  If I do Ballybunion in '03, it's England in '04!

So many golf courses, so little time.

Thanks all.

[THuckaby2]

Craig:

We have a resident expert on Ballybunion here in Tim Weiman - hopefully he will see this - he can tell you all about the area, where to stay, etc.  In any case, the impression I have re visitor access though is that if you received a tee-time there for both courses, TAKE IT.  You won't be disappointed by either the Old or the Cashen, I think.  As for surrounding courses, you won't be disappointed by those either... Lahinch (as you know), Waterville, Tralee, Dooks, Doonbeg, the list goes on and on...

But the main draw will be Ballybunion and whilst you may not get the "education" Rich and others believe will come playing in England, there is always next year.  I'd say jump on Ballybunion before it gets even tougher to get on.

TH

[Mitch Hantman]

I would like to know about the other courses near Ballybunion as well.  I'm going this
May, and would like to hear opinions of Dooks, Tralee, Doonbeg, and any other
worthwhile courses there.  I have heard some mixed comments about Tralee.

Also, any B&B recommendations for Ballyunion, Waterville, Kinsale, or Newcastle?

[David_Tepper]

Paul Turner-
I played Trevose & St. Endoc last June.
I would agree that for the most part Trevose is rather flat and featureless. There are a handful of holes out along the seaside dunes that are good and somewhat scenic, but I found the balance to be rather dull. I also thought the condition of the course was not especially good.
St. Endoc, on the other hand, was a real delight. A tremedous variety of holes, great scenery, some of the most enormous sand hills I have ever seen and the course was in very nice condition. I have played 27 of the top 100 courses in the British Isles and St. Endoc would make my top-5 favorite list.
Craig Turner-
Golf in SW Ireland is great and I would encourage you to go!
However, as noted in your original post, if you only have four days available and you do not want to spend a lot of time driving around, finding B&B's, packing/unpacking your bags and loading/unloading your car, Southport cannot be beat.
You can stay in the same B&B/hotel for all for nights and play an excellent different golf course each day without having to drive more than 15 minutes.
The good news is that you cannot go wrong either place!
DT

[Paul Turner]

David

Thanks for the report.  I'll still go and check it out.  I am a bit surprised about the condition, I had heard it was kept as a true links: good and fast.

If it's no good, I'll be back to St Enodoc.

Craig

Ballybunion?  Don't be too hasty, it's one of the best, but do you really want the hordes and 5 hour rounds?  You'll be round in 3 at my suggestions or the Lancs coast    Depends if you want to get away from it all.

If you go to Saunton, stay in Croyd (not Barnstaple) and visit The Thatch Inn.

And St Enodoc are sticklers for Handicap Certs.

  

[David_Tepper]

Paul-
By all means play Trevose and see what you think. Be sure to give us a report. When are you going?
Sounds like you have played St. Endoc already. What a great spot.
Other good courses down the Cornish Coast I have heard good things about are Perranporth (James Braid), Newquay (HS Colt) and West Cornwall in St. Ives.
I would also like to play Bude & North Cornwall (Tom Dunn).
So many courses, so little time!
DT  

[Craig James]

Paul:

You  can be sure that St. Endoc's and the Lanc. coast - and the Southport area are now both on my radar screen...  I'm already thinking ahead to '04!

But I've been trying to get a convenient tee time at Ballybunion for a couple of years - and now that I have one, I'm going to grab it.  

Plus, I'll be going in October, so perhaps I'll be able to avoid the 5 hour rounds and crowds that must surely clog the place from May - August...

I was thinking what a contrast it will be to play three "modern" links courses on this trip.  In contrast to Ballybunion Old, I'll be playing Tralee, the Cashen Course and Doonbeg.  Don't  know whether I'll like them more or less than traditional  links, but I expect they will be different...  Should be interesting.

[buckeye_bob]

Craig, kindly consider Doonbeg/Ireland west coast.My June visit only experienced Royal County Down better!

[Keith Durrant]

Can anyone tell me why Ballybunion is so popular these days.

I have Harvey Pennink's "Choice of Golf Courses" of GB & I (published 1976) and it doesnt rate a mention. The Irish courses listed are:

Carlow, Cork, County Sligo, Island, Killarney, Lahinch, Portmarnock, County Down, Portrush.

For fans of the West Country, he lists:

St Ives, Trevose, St Enodoc, Westward Ho, Saunton, Burnham, Churston.

Would any Irishman rate Ballybunion as one of Ireland's 5 best courses?

[Doug Wright]

Rottcodd,

Huh? Have you ever played Ballybunion? If you had you'd place it in the top 5 in Ireland. Did Harvey Penick ever play it?  I love The Island but it doesn't hold a candle to Ballybunion from about any golf or golf architecture standpoint.

Just another example of how "rankings" can be arbitrary--who knows what Harvey was thinking in 1976? (Great teacher though).

All The Best,  

[Tim Weiman]

Tom Huckaby:

Ballybunion has been gradually cutting back on outside play in recent years. To what extent this will continue I don't know.  However, I will be spending a week there in February and get an updated view.

Behind the reduction in outside play is a significant improvement in the financial condition of the club. Outside green fees are no longer needed to the extent they once were. This has naturally led to pressure from members to increase the time available for just members.

Paul Turner refers to five hour rounds at Ballybunion these days, a stark contrast to the 1980's when one usually went around in about three hours. But, it is probably more accurate to say that there are two Ballybunions: slow play in the morning to accomodate the busloads of visitors and quite pleasant rounds in the afternoon during members time.

Sadly, these days most visitors show up in busloads during the summer months and really miss what makes the place so appealing. It is much better to go in the winter months to catch a glimpse of what I consider the real Ballybunion.

I find it interesting that "Rottcott" would wonder why any Irishman would consider Ballybunion one of the top five course in Ireland. He must have been one of those guys who showed up and left quickly in a bus. Too bad he didn't spend a few days with someone like Frank Feely, the former mayor of Dublin who comes down to Ballybunion for about a month each year. Frank could answer Rottcott's question much better than I could.

[Jack Marr]

Ballybunion did not really come to prominance untill the 1980s, when Tom Watson visited and spread the word, so it would have been considered a course in the backwaters of Ireland when Harvey wrote his book, if it was considered at all. It has also changed since then, with the present start being the original finish...

Tim

My father knows Frank well. A very nice man. I don't mean to split hairs, but I think he was Dublin City Manager, rather than Lord Mayor. I could be wrong of course.

He must hit the ball a long way.

[Keith Durrant]

Apologies, the 1976 book is by Frank Pennink - "Choice of Golf Courses".

Quote from the Ballybunion website, detailing its rise in prominence:

"The next significant date in Ballybunion’s history was 1957 when the course was selected as the venue for the Irish Professional
      Championship. Harry Bradshaw emerged victorious in what was to be the last of his 10 national titles. Further attention from the mass
      media came in 1970 with the arrival of television cameras to record the match between Ireland’s Christy O’Connor and Bob Goalby from the
      United States for the World of Golf TV series. In 1967 The Irish Professional Championship returned to Ballybunion; in 1978 Arnold O’Connor
      won the Carroll’s Irish Matchplay Championship here.

      1971 triggered the start of a new era for Ballybunion Golf Club. Land was purchased on which the Cashen Course was to be built. The
      Club left its clubhouse on the present sixth tee and built a new clubhouse, on the present site of the clubhouse, central to both courses. We
      took a sudden leap into intemational prominence when world-acclaimed golf writer, Herbert Warren Wind, wrote an article ranking
      Ballybunion in the world’s Top Ten Courses.

      Things were never quite the same again. Hordes of visitors, very many from the U.S.A., thronged to Ballybunion. Among these was
      Ballybunion’s favourite adopted son Tom Watson, who came first with his friend Sandy Satum in 1981, and has been a regular since.

[Tim Weiman]

Jack Marr:

Truthfully, I don't know the precise difference between "city manager" and mayor. In fairness, Frank always used the term "city manager", not mayor.

I've always used the term mayor (perhaps incorrectly) based on the first exprience I had playing with Frank. After our round of golf, we were joined by my Mom in the old clubhouse bar. Frank and my Mom struck up quite a political conversation that when on for hours, indeed much longer than it took to play 18 holes in those days.

At one point Frank asked my Mom where she was from. When she told him New York City, Frank launched into a discussion about his friend Ed Koch.

When Frank said to my Mom that he understood her son lived in Los Angeles, he also told her how fond he was of former LA mayor Tom Bradley.

Finally, Frank also asked my Mom where she grew up. When she told him Cincinnati, by God, Frank knew that Mayor too!

So, when he got up to visit the men's room, my Mom asked "Who the hell is this guy?".

"Oh", I said, "he's the mayor of Dublin".......and my mom just about punched me for not letting her know.

Anyway, whether I've got the title right, Frank is quite Irish and knows Ballybunion quite well. He could certainly answer rottcott's question quite well.

As for Tom Watson's impact on Ballybunion, I've always had somewhat mixed feelings. The place was really special before it rose to prominence and the "hordes" made their way there in busloads. The old clubhouse had a much warmer feeling. There were visitors, of course, but they were more the hard core people not expecting any kind of luxury. Just great golf and great fun. It was the place I fell in love with and think about everyday.

But, the other side of things was the economic reality. It was bleak. Unemployment was very high. Even the relatively well off had very little. So, I know most people in Ballybunion really appreciate what prominence and development have brought.

As I've said many times at this site, most American visitors arrive by bus and quickly move on to play another course. They don't stop long enough to figure out that Irish golf - real Irish golf - is something different than the CCFAD mentality that pervades American golf. They don't know what they are missing. They might just as well go to Scottsdale.


.

[Jack Marr]

Tim

It would not be unusual to find an Irishman claiming to know Ed Koch and Tom Bradley, but it is unusual to find one who is telling the truth when he claims it. FranK Feeley is the kind of man who gets to know people wherever he goes.

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