[Tony_Chapman]

Pretty sure that Ran's Southern Pines GC is also less than $35, year-round.

Nope. Played them both. As much as a fan I am of Ross (and, Mr. Morrissett) SPCC is not better than Wild Horse.

[Tony_Chapman]

Brad S:

I'll give you two in New Mexico --

Black Mesa

Pinon Hills

I'll also mention a new Jim Engh design in Colorado called Lakota Canyon Ranch.

You also have Devil's Thumbs in Delta, CO by Rick Phelps.

Old Works in Anaconda, MT by Jack Nicklaus is also well done and quite modest to play.

Let me point out that I personally believe Bayside is not far apart, if at all, from what you find at Wild Horse, despite what many people may claim.

Matt - Would you say all of these courses are [/i]better than Wild Horse, or just in the "same neighborhood."

(ie. if they all cost $35 to play, which would you pick?)

You don't have to pick WH, I am just askin'.

[JakaB]

There are a ton of courses less than $35 to walk in my area.

None of them are better than Wild Horse.

Maybe the word you were looking for was cheaper.

George,

Not just cheaper....just cheap enough to be a better choice to play...I don't even need to play them both to know Oak Hollow and Bethpage Black and Red are better....but what the hell....It's not even my thread.   I was thinking about the Rawls Course....I bet even it is better...

[Jason Mandel]

Wild horse may be $35 dollars to play, but it costs 99% of the people that play a helluva lot more when considering travel,etc.

Jason

[Michael Moore]

Save a bundle at Cape Arundel by Walter Travis - $45.

[JakaB]

Michael,

You got anything by Stiles up there that is public and a deal...

[Tony_Chapman]

Wild horse may be $35 dollars to play, but it costs 99% of the people that play a helluva lot more when considering travel,etc.

Jason

Here is a great argument. Why even have this discussion then. Pinon Hills, Black Mesa, would cost me a ton if I am coming from Nebraska.

And, if there is a better membership in the nation -- $450 for a family + a $500 initiation fee payable over five years would someone let me know!!!!

[Matt_Ward]

Tony:

Black Mesa and Pinon Hills are better all-around courses than Wild Horse. The cost to play at the two aforementioned New Mexico layouts is comparable to that of the layout in Gothenburg, NE.

Old Works is not as "unique" (firm & fast) as Wild Horse, but the layout by Jack Nicklaus is well done and very modest -- I believe green fees are comparable with WH.

Lakota Canyon Ranch is beyond what you see at Wild Horse although the fees for the CO layout are just a bit higher.

Devil's Thumb is also a solid layout and it's fees are no more than Wild Horse. Here's layout that finished second to Rustic Canyon in the Best Affordable category by Digest but gets 1% of the total visibility that the layout in Moorpark gets. You'd also have to mention Rustic Canyon because the layout there is just as good, if not better, than Wild Horse.

I also think Bayside gets forgotten as a good layout too.

The think for me about Wild Horse is that the concept of a "firm'n fast layout" is the heart of the facility. There are a few holes of note (the renowned 8th comes quickly to mind -- ditto the unique par-4 15th) but I was more intriqued by the presentation rather than the totality of its substance. The courses I just mentioned have substance to compete beyond what you find at Wild Horse although I tend to agree that Bayside is likely a slightly weaker alternative.

[Brad Swanson]

Brad S:

I'll give you two in New Mexico --

Black Mesa

Pinon Hills

I'll also mention a new Jim Engh design in Colorado called Lakota Canyon Ranch.

You also have Devil's Thumbs in Delta, CO by Rick Phelps.

Old Works in Anaconda, MT by Jack Nicklaus is also well done and quite modest to play.

Let me point out that I personally believe Bayside is not far apart, if at all, from what you find at Wild Horse, despite what many people may claim.

Matt,
   I have only played Black Mesa of these you listed.  It certainly is comparable, for a similar price, but I prefer Wild Horse myself by a small margin.

I ashamedly haven't played the others, being that most of them were within a reasonable excursion distance when I lived in Denver.

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[JakaB]

And, if there is a better membership in the nation -- $450 for a family + a $500 initiation fee payable over five years would someone let me know!!!!

Tony,

I agree with you that travel has no basis in this argument...but if the family membership at Wild Horse is such a value tell me how long is the waiting list.....I'd say Cypress, Pine Valley and Augusta are all better values...

[George Pazin]

I'd say The Rawls Course is the best deal out there, but 1) who'd believe me, I'm a Doak butt boy and 2) honestly, I don't have anywhere near the breadth of experience to judge.

I will say that I'd sooner pay $100 to play The Rawls Course than $25 to play Black Mesa - but it's already been established that I'm biased.

Shadow Creek used to be free....

[Tony_Chapman]

Matt - Thanks for a wonderful, well thought out post!! I wish I could say I have played the courses you mentioned in the post, but, alas, I have not. I have seen pictures of most and feel like I have been to RC, having read "Grounds for Golf."  

It appears Brad appreciates your thoughtfulness as well.

So, let's start a list for John of a course "as good" as WH(in no particular order):

Rustic Canyon, Old Works, Devil's Thumb, Bayside, Black Mesa, Lakota Canyon Ranch, Rawls Course.

Matt - Would you put Hawk Tree in this group? I don't find it as walkable as WH, but a very nice test at least.

[Tony_Chapman]

Tony,

I agree with you that travel has no basis in this argument...but if the family membership at Wild Horse is such a value tell me how long is the waiting list.....I'd say Cypress, Pine Valley and Augusta are all better values...

John - I wish I could answer your question, but I, unfortunately am not a member and have no idea if there is even a waiting list. I won't even suggest which of the four tracks has a more "valuable" membership because that is using two separate meanings of the word. One, being a heck a bargain and two being something that is cherished.

I would say the membership at WH is a little more "realistic" for this chum, though.  

[Matt_Ward]

Tony:

No, I would not include Hawktree -- just not as thorough as Wild Horse by a tad, however, I would include a neighboring course in South Dakota called Red Rock in Rapid City by Ron Ferris -- a superb new layout just 10 minutes from Mount Rushmore.

Let me also mention what some have said -- Bethpage Red is no slouch of a course either.

Let me also second the mention of The Rawls Course -- well done by Tom Doak and certainly equal to what you see at Wild Horse.

I'd have to also mention Apache Stronghold in Globe, AZ -- the layout is solid and the course conditioning was improving since my last visit.

[Tony_Chapman]

Matt - Thanks for Red Rock. I was trying to think of the name of that place. I am planning a short getaway to Mt. Rushmore this year and want to check it out.

[Matt_Ward]

Three other courses I would throw in that could easily compete with Wild Horse on price and architectural quality are for the nation's heartland in Indiana ...

The Trophy Club (just outside of Indy) -- the max rate is $60 with cart I believe. Superb Tim Liddy design that gets lost in the sauce. Generally you can play for about $40 most of the time.

Rock Hollow in Peru, IN -- max rate is $49 for 18 holes without cart.

Purgatory in Noblesville, IN -- max rate is $65 w cart, but you can play for far less with a yearly pass. If you decide to walk you can simply deduct $10 from the total.

[Brad Swanson]

How many of the places mentioned in this thread (some of which are significantly more $$ and don't count towards the 100 ) have the outstanding playing conditions that Wild Horse consistently provides, including a great "maintenance meld"?  Matt touched on this about Wild Horse and he is absolutely correct in his assertions (in reply #32).

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

 

[Tony_Chapman]

Brad - I am way with you on this thread, and I have a list on a notepad about the courses mentioned. It would be interesting to put this list together, say, tomorrow and see which courses would rise to the top.

Though I have played just WH, my guess is we could put Rustic, Pinon Hills, Apache Stronghold at the top of the list with WH.

[JakaB]

Brad,

I have just been informed that the Scarlet Course at Ohio State has been put on the 100 top twenty courses better than Wild Horse....watta you think about that..

[Tony_Chapman]

Brad,

I have just been informed that the Scarlet Course at Ohio State has been put on the 100 top twenty courses better than Wild Horse....watta you think about that..

John - A great find, this MacKenzie course. How much to play if I am not a student, faculty member or alum? I will add this to my list.

[Matt_Ward]

Brad / Tony:

Let me re-emphasize that much of the fanfare tied to Wild Horse is based on two items -- the maintenance meld and the wild & wooly nature of the bunkers you find there. The totality of the holes from a pure strategic vantage point is not as keen as the first two items I mentioned. Before anyone decides to bark back to me that there are quality holes at Wild Horse -- I don't deny that the course has its share but the totality of what is there doesn't match up in my mind to a number of the courses I have already cited on this thread. To cite one clear example -- Black Mesa is a good bit beyond what Wild Horse is -- no matter what my good friend George Pazin has to say.  

I also think Wild Horse benefits from being near Sand Hills. Sort of a spill-over honeymoon effect -- you know, the two-for-the-price-of-one deal.

When people harp on the fact that Wild Horse only costs "x" per round you have to factor the cost of living and other related aspects when saying which course provides the best overall "value." If someplace in the east costs $50 that to me is comparable to what you find at Wild Horse -- of course -- one has to weigh the turf conditions and the totality of the holes as well.

[Steven_Biehl]

I'll throw a couple of other courses into this mix:

Harrison Hills, Attica, IN (How did you forget this one Matt?) Even better, play the back nine twice!

Diamond Springs, in MI

I have never played Wild Horse, but these two courses are excellent for the money.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt;

I think you're missing the point about Wild Horse.  It's not firm and fast just to be firm and fast, nor is the ragged look of the place and bunkers an attempt to do anything but copy the native terrain, where natural blow-out bunkers dot the landscape much of the drive up from Denver.  

The holes play firm and fast because it's an open, WIND-swept, sandy prairie, and what makes it great is that that architects left enough width and playability to account for all types of weather and all types of player.  Options abound out there and the architects didn't create the type of course where play was dicated; instead they let everyone find their own course and own routes.  This type of variability was needed on a course where I ended up hitting a 220 yard 8-iron and on another hole killed a 5-iron to reach 110 yards.  

It's a course that is built in a way that is totally attuned to its environment, and in a way where everyone can have fun and challenge.  

If this is minimalism, give me more, not less, of it.

[RJ_Daley]

It seems everyone has their own reality about what they think are the best golf courses, whether the factors are a balance of $ value, strategy, walkability, design quality in craftsmanship, consistency of the kind of maintenance presentation they favor, the look, the hospitality, the ammenities, and blah-blah-blah.  So what?  Play the ones you like.  Rave about the ones you think are best.  Try to start a argument with all the "my course is better than yours".  At the end of the day, what have we learned, if we continue in the mode of; "my course is better than yours"?

Someone called Barney out on his bluster and provocative stateent that there are so many better courses in the country than WH, and finally he gave us his tests, $$$$$!!!!

He post a link to some pathetic looking piece of crap with a bathub full of sand on either side of a pancake shaped area that seems mowed to greens height and tells us it is great because it is cheap.  OK, he is intitled to his pint of $1.99 Muscatelle, Salute!

I love Southern Pines, Tobacco Rd, Rustic Canyon.  They are all great!  They have provided me with some wonderful times on the golf course.  I wish I would have seen Black Mesa, Rawls, and a few others mentioned.  I have no doubt the are wonderful as well.

But, for my own personal taste, Wild Horse is a better golf course on the wide array of personal criteria I use for my own evaluation.  That is all that counts to me.  I couldn't care less if Barney played all the remaining days of his life on those high value $5 courses he named.  I say, hit them well John.. enjoy. Don't feel any rush to get out to WH and actually experience it.  Save your money and play the better twenty courses than WH that you like...we Wild Horse fans will struggle on, somehow...

[Mike_Cirba]

To everyone else, I say, just keep trying to find 20 better courses.  I'm still waiting to hear one I'd agree with.

In the words of Doc Geoffrey Childs, who's played a few courses in his time, "Wild Horse plays faster than any course I've seen on these shores".  I can see where it would frustrate the fellow who wants his short irons to pitch and spin back on a dime, but I can't imagine most here wouldn't absolutely love it.

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