[Craig Van Egmond]

Matt,

    Put me down as one person that drove out my way to play Wildhorse.  Well worth the drive, its a course that stands on its own merits and doesn't need to ride on Sand Hills spectacular coattail.  

RJ,
   You should definately make it to Black Mesa and the rest. you will not be disappointed.

I for one am just so grateful that there are courses like Rustic Canyon, Wildhorse, Rawls Course, Black Mesa etc., excellent courses, reasonably priced and accessible by all.

[RJ_Daley]

Craig, absolutely!  I am looking forward to a visit with Adam in the land of enchantment, and a ride north to experience Rick's, DT.

BTW, since we had our round together at Lost Canyons, Sky, did it leave you with any lasting impressions, that support Matt's high regard for that particular golf course?  i.e., tee shots, approaches, hazard placement, green contour interest, and playability-routing variety-cart only criteria, etc.?   i Know for certain that everytime I return to that area, I would choose to play that other course we saw that day, nearby.  No contest...

[Craig Van Egmond]

 

RJ,

    I am no fan of Lost Canyons. I can see how it may appeal to some low handicap masicists but I would be play the other course down the road 10 out 10 times. No contest.  

[A_Clay_Man]

But you failed to understand the point I made. There are holes at each of the two courses where the qualities are less so than the others there IMHO. Matt, qualify it all you want, but this statement seems a bit vague and/or so subjective, I'd have no idea of what you speak other than that EVERY course has elements that are less so than other elements. . I'm not speaking about difficulty -- I'm speaking about a seemless quality where the level of detail and character is kept at a slightly higher and more consistent level throughout the entire round.Matt, If I understand the points you've made, correctly, you are saying DT has more of these qualities throughout, than WH. Is that correct? If it is, I disagree. Consistent character is usually repetitive. At WH and the Rawls, there are no two mounds alike. Even the ones out of play, are as random as nature.

Unfortunately, because certain people don't have the personal visits to other unique and exciting designs in the USA as others, it is easy -- in fact -- predictable -- people then hunker down and proclaim it's not possible or unlikely other courses exist in the USA with a modest green fee and still have a superior design than the layout in Gothenburg.

Adam -- you mention the word "playability" and I agree it's something that needs to be analyzed for any course to be considered given what Wild Horse presents. I believe the candidates I mentioned provide that at an equal or higher level. Honestly Matt, I feel the golf being played at WH and The Rawls, is significantly different than most of these other courses. So different that standard fare is just that, standard.

[JakaB]

Putting a list like this together is hard work....I really feel for Brad and Ron....so far we have:

Oak Glen (Stoy)
Rustic Canyon
Bethpage Black
Bethpage Red
Tabacco Road
Clearcrest
Oak Hollow
Black Mesa
Pinion Hills
Lakota Ranch
Devils Thumb
Old Works
Southern Pines
The Rawls Course
Cape Arundel
Red Rock
Apache Stronghold
Trophy Club
Rock Hollow
Purgatory
Scarlet
Harrison Hills
Diamond Springs
Warren Course

76 trombones to go.....

as I typed two more arrived

Wilmington Muni
Swope Park

We are past half way half way there....

An update on the additions on our way to The 100 Top Twenty Affordable Courses.....note: Cirba's nominations were predisqualified by his own comments..

Pajaro
Balboa Park
Hotchkiss (Dead solid no doubt lock)
Delaware Spings  (shaky because it is also an A&P)
Dunes at Seville (Art Hills)
Leslie Park
Faulkwood Shores
Hunters Ridge
Pacific Grove (DSNDL)

65 more to go....
 

[Mike_Cirba]

John;

Glad I could predisqualify my own nominations...you're a funny guy!  

Of course, as I think about it, my nominations are better courses than a bunch on your list, so maybe you should rethink their omission.  

[JakaB]

Mike,

Have you played Hotchkiss....and if you have...could you sincerely recommend that I search out Wild Horse before it....note:  I don't see myself getting on Sand Hills as part of the package....I'd rather play Taconic anyway..

and....If you have no opinion of Hotchkiss...what three courses do you see needing to come off of the list....first that is..

[Mike_Cirba]

John;

Haven't played Hotchkiss...I do need to get up there someday, for certain.

I can tell you that all of my courses are better than the shell of Balboa Park (even though I like it) and you'd like them all better than Hunters Ridge.  

I still don't see more than a handful of your list in Wild Horse's category, though.  

Would I seek out WH if I didn't get to play Sand Hills?  Well, you're talking to a guy who woke up at 2am to catch a 6am, 4-hour flight to Sioux Falls, then excitedly drove 4 hours to play Sutton Bay, and then sadly drove back to Sioux Falls for business the next morning.  

[JakaB]

Haven't played Hotchkiss...I do need to get up there someday, for certain.

Would I seek out WH if I didn't get to play Sand Hills?  Well, you're talking to a guy who woke up at 2am to catch a 6am, 4-hour flight to Sioux Falls, then excitedly drove 4 hours to play Sutton Bay, and then sadly drove back to Sioux Falls for business the next morning.  

I don't get it...I'm supposed to be impressed that you played a big new belt knotcher on a business trip but you have never taken the time to play Hotchkiss....sure you would play Wild Horse...but obviously only because it is top 20 Golfweek.  Anyone out east who has not played Hotchkiss and claims to be a student of architecture can kiss my hotch...

[Mike_Sweeney]

I don't get it...I'm supposed to be impressed that you played a big new belt knotcher on a business trip but you have never taken the time to play Hotchkiss....sure you would play Wild Horse...but obviously only because it is top 20 Golfweek.  Anyone out east who has not played Hotchkiss and claims to be a student of architecture can kiss my hotch...

So am I off BBSG probation now ?

MICHAEL SWEENEY


CONNECTICUT STATE GOLF ASSOC
HOTCHKISS SCHOOL GOLF CLUB
9.2
Effective Date: 10/22/04

[JakaB]

Sweeney,

The simple fact that you were party to beaking Hucks wrist removed you from your double secret probationary status....it was so secret even I wasn't informed.   You may find yourself in trouble again if you don't show for this years Raynor Society meeting in Chattanooga....but these things seem to play out on their own..

[Mike_Cirba]

I don't get it...I'm supposed to be impressed that you played a big new belt knotcher on a business trip but you have never taken the time to play Hotchkiss....sure you would play Wild Horse...but obviously only because it is top 20 Golfweek.  Anyone out east who has not played Hotchkiss and claims to be a student of architecture can kiss my hotch...

John;

You obviously know very little about me.  

I've always been a publinx player and have played virtually every public course in the eastern half of Pennsylvania, all of New Jersey, Delaware, much of NY, and at least half of Maryland.  This includes nine-holers, 12 holers, 14 holer even, as well as par three courses and courses that run the gamut to the lowliest, farm-cum-course where grass wouldn't grow.

I've also researched the design origins of all of them in an effort to help C&W with their work.  

The majority of the courses I've played wouldn't impress anyone on here, John.  I've done it because I love the game and its courses and the the variety of playing fields has always fascinated me.

So kiss my hotch, John.  

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

Head to DC and work for the Bush team because you failed to grasp what I said and in the context that I posted not the manner by which you spin it.

Adam -- if you think The Rawls Course and Wild Horse are "SIGNIFICANTLY" better than Devil's Thumb and Black Mesa than please ship the "funny water" you've been drinking lately. I said Adam -- "equal or greater" -- and if you really think The Rawl Course and Wild Horse are light years beyond the ones I mentioned you and I are worlds apart.

Adam -- you need to re-read the quote I posted from Ron Whitten on Black Mesa -- the issue of minimalism and playability are both calculated because Ron himself is a mid-handicapper.

Adam -- you fail to understand that "consistent character doesn't mean "sameness." You're confusing the two. You also mentioned the idea that Wild Horse and The Rawls Course have "breather" holes -- I don't believe "breather holes" are a plus -- because too often they letdown from the standpoint of individual character and design merit and are nothing more than "pass thru" holes to others of greater quality.

Adam -- permit me to repeat what I previously posted on this point ... "I don't crowd out or minimize "breather holes" -- I do crowd out courses with inferior holes when held up against other courses for comparison purposes. That doesn't mean a course like Wild Horse is less so -- it's just that the other candidates for acclaim are more so."

Couple of other points -- The Rawls Course is a
"manufactured" layout of high quality. The boys at Tom Fazio, Inc. shold venture down to Lubbock and see what can be done in handling such a God-forsaken place like that. I salute Tom Doak for creating a solid mixture of outstanding holes, however, I think, if you really examine what Rick Phelps did with an even more exacting site you will see a finer overall project. To reiterate I am a huge fan of Wild Horse but when compared to Black Mesa there's no contest -- the New Mexico layout is so ripe with details and the OVERALL character of the course is simply seemless. The only issue I can mention with Black Mesa rests with the front nine when you go in a relatively straight line in the routing for holes #4 through #7. Nonetheless, each of the holes in this stretch is well done and clearly varied. The rest of the course is airtight IMHO.

Adam -- let's also get one thing straight -- I don't simply assess courses from a tunnel vision of JUST DIFFICULTY. I appreciate the stereotyping but it's far from true. I assess on a much wider plane than that. Adam -- try to read my commentaries on courses and you'll see that.

RJ:

I never said that every person who treks to Mullen will also trek to Gothenburg. What I did say is that having such a super heavyweight course like Sand Hills in the neighborhood certainly helps the exposure factor WITH KEY CONNECTED GOLFERS who also want to sample another fine course within 60 minutes of Sand Hills.

RJ -- I don't doubt certain people -- those here on GCA -- would travel to Gothenburg as a "stand alone" facility but you can't argue out of the fact that having Sand Hills nearby is a huge plus. It's like having the Vatican in close proximity to a small church of quality.

RJ -- you ask me about my comments when I say that Devil's Thumb and Black Mesa are "decisively" ahead of Wild Horse. Yes, I believe that. I have the utmost respect for Wild Horse and believe it's a certain "must play" for anyone being in that section of the USA. No doubt about it.

However, in my experience in playing public courses from throughout the USA I am taking the position that the overall character of the course -- the seemless nature of what is provided for 18 holes -- Devil's Thumb and Black Mesa have the edge on the layout in Gothenburg. Does that mean I have less respect for Wild Horse? Not a chance .. I'd enjoy future rounds in Gothenburg because I have huge respect for what Axland & Proctor did there.

Let me also reiterate what I posted previously ...

"Unfortunately, because certain people don't have the personal visits to other unique and exciting designs in the USA as others, it is easy -- in fact -- predictable -- people then hunker down and proclaim it's not possible or unlikely other courses exist in the USA with a modest green fee and still have a superior design than the layout in Gothenburg."
 
RJ -- my calls on golf courses are not "personal" they are substantive based on the three key elements I evaluate courses from ... the land, the routing, the totality of the shot values. I also calculate the manner by which the course is properly prepared in terms of turf quality and overall "speed" --the wherewithal for the ball to bounce after hitting the turf and the allowance for fair play -- or as others call it playability. I don't doubt my evaluations are subjective because they are in fact my opinion -- no less yours or anyone else's for that matter.

RJ -- you also make a comment about Black Mesa from pictures alone on the elements of recovery when playing there. Help me out -- but how does analysis from photos trump someone who's actually played the course several times? People will find Black Mesa so uniquely gifted in the manner by which it uses all the attributes of the native New Mexico landscape. Baxter Spann, unfortunately, isn't the "big name" that other architects are but his final product is simply senational. Like I said -- re-read Whitten's comments about the course in golfdigest.com.

RJ -- we will agree to disagree on the merits in having a course of the caliber of Sand Hills nearby to Wild Horse versus the likes of Devil's Thumb in remote Delta, CO. My point was that the "movers & shakers" who come to Sand Hills might very well play at Wild Horse and thereby spread the word about what is there. I'm not referring simply to Joe Sixpack and Mary Wineglass tourist who are venturing through the west in their RV and just happen to play golf. There's a differene between the two in my mind.






 

[Josh_Mahar]

I am not a big guy by any means, but a jockstrap is not that heavy!!

[Dan Kelly]

Adam:...

Adam...

I said Adam ...

Adam ...

Adam ...

Adam ...

Adam ...

Adam -- try to read my commentaries on courses and you'll see that.

RJ:

RJ...

RJ ...

RJ ...

RJ ...

RJ ...

Matt -- Have mercy on our souls!

Matt -- Please!

Matt -- I'm gonna lose what little of my mind remains!

[Matt_Ward]

Sorry Danno -- Danno -- Danno -- Danno  

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()