[Fred_C.]

Folks,

Much time has been spent here (and will be spent here with the Amateur putting the course once again in the public eye) discussing the bunkers on the East Course.  I would like to ask about Merion's trees and the question of tree removal.  Certainly, for instance, the stand of trees between 15/16 protects players on either side, and the trees by 5 tee protect players from wayward shots coming into 4 green.  However, what about other stands of trees?  I'm thinking about the trees between 6/7 fairways, 4/5 fairways, etc... Where are the unnecessary trees?  I know they took some trees down (between 11/12, for instance), but is there still discussion there about thinning the course out even more?

FJC

[Mike_Sweeney]

Fred,

Before Tom, Tom and Wayne get started  , I will say that the removal of trees and cleaning up of the area between 15 tee and 16 green, was the best thing about the Fazio/Merion Committee restoration/renovation IMHO.

[TEPaul]

I doubt they're going to do much more tree removal. I don't even see where they should. Merion East did remove some trees recently in a few significant places but it's been a course, at least compared to most other inland courses that have some age on them, that never had that much of a tree encroachment problem.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I agree withTE, it is my understanding that the tree removal on 15/16 and even more substantially on 17 was purely a restoration project as opposed to an infringment problem.
I know from experience that the removed trees did nothing but frame the respective holes, and did not become obtrusive.
I cannot see any more tree removal being of any advantage, perahps purley from a restorative point of view there may be the odd one or two, but nothing that even the pickiest non tree proponent could get upset about.
Once again..leave the baby alone....

[wsmorrison]

I heartedly agree with Tom and Michael.  Merion is a terrific example of an old course that never did get proliferated with trees.  The only trees I would consider taking down in the interior portion of the property are the few remaining trees on the quarry edge right of the 18th fairway.  I think the complete skyline fairway look would be a nice improvement.  They've already taken down most of the trees on the quarry's ledge between 17 tee and 18 fairway.  The few that remain would be worth considering removing.  The tree removal that was done on the hill above 9 (mostly Tulip Poplars?) looks great as does the areas previously mentioned.

[TEPaul]

Of course, if some start to look at Merion East in old aerials from the early 1920s they'll see a course almost devoid of trees. This might inspire some of the tree haters on here to suggest the course should be restored to that early look. I don't think I'd ever suggest that though. Merion East was originally farmland so that makes sense. It's probably best to try to understand as best as is possible what the original designers of Merion East intended the course to eventually be like and look like tree-wise--and as those architects, certainly Flynn, was around a long time that probably isn't all that difficult to tell to some extent.

[mike_malone]

 TEPaul,
   As I looked at the Llanerch aerial yesterday, I was struck by the similarity to Rolling Green in one respect. That is the lines of trees one often finds on farmland. I  am no farmboy,for sure, but I believe trees were planted to reduce wind on some farms--someone can certainly correct me on that.

  I wonder if Merion had any of these lines. There was one that appeared to run between #1 and #2 at RG. There seemed to be several at LCC. They cut the fairway leaving tree lines on both sides.

[ChipOat]

There were some tree encroachment issues (i.e. Stupid Trees) at Merion some years back that were rectified prior to the 1989 U.S. Am.

The trees at the quarry edge on #18 are interesting in that 1) they don't really come into play from the regular members' markers, 2) create some problems from the normal "back tees" due to both distance and angle and 3) are arguably semi-Stupid Trees from the new "Major Championship" tee box.

So long as the right rough near them isn't turned into fairway, I've never thought the challenge of that great hole would be impaired if they were removed.

They just might provide some protection for the new location of the Back/Championship tee box on #17, however.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Fred C,
At the start of this thread, you mention discussion of the bunkers..please ellaborate on why you think this will be the case..thanks..michael

[Mike_Cirba]

Michael Wharton-Palmer;

Please, please, please don't ask.  

More time and energies have been expended on this site (including your's truly) discussing the bunker recreation by Tom Fazio a few years back than perhaps any other topic.

If you think they're ok aesthetically and functionally as they are now, then you're probably better off not hearing the rest.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul & CHipoat,

In your opinion, do the trees in anyway influence the widths of the fairways ?

Do they prevent the fairways from being widened to their former, Pre Major, widths ?

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul & CHipoat,
In your opinion, do the trees in anyway influence the widths of the fairways?"

Pat:

That's a good question, although, I'd sort of doubt that. Maybe what's there now tree-wise on holes like #2, maybe a little on the left of #7 and maybe some on #8 but I'd sort of doubt it. Those fairways back in the teens and early 20s when there were very few trees on the property (the site had originally been a farm although the history book says it hadn't been farmed for years before Merion bought the land) were really wide. Merion has expanded some fairways but they're never going back to the way the course was in it's first phase. The course was pretty much rebunkered with all the routing and architectural changes that went on from the mid 1920s until into the early 1930s, so if Merion was to go back to some former era they shouldn't and probably never would consider going back past the early 1930 era, otherwise they'd be going back and taking out and restoring right past that excellent era when Wilson and Flynn redid the coures (Wilson died in Jan 1925 so it was really to Flynn's plans). We have all those Flynn plans which makes it so much different for us compared to the first phase (1911) on which we have no plans at all. I'm not sure that Merion East would ever really need to find plans to establish who did that first phase in 1911 though as that master researcher from Ohio seems to have just irrefutably established that Wilson and committee must have been too much the novices to route and design that golf course so it must have been the "advice" (cited in some early articles) of those great early talents from New York--Macdonald, Whigam and Raynor that was responsible for the first phase of the creation of Merion East!

Can't you see the real similarity in style between Merion East and that well known Macdonald/Raynor style?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Yes, it's all coming together.
Now that you've pointed it out, I can see CBM's, SR's and even CB's handiwork.

I believe that Merion's stated objective was a restoration to 1930.  If that is the case, why wouldn't they return the fairways to those widths ?

Are there plans to do so AFTER the Amateur next year ?

You and I have talked about lateral elasticity in the past, and this would seem the ideal golf course for its use.

[wsmorrison]

The earliest drawings we have are Flynn's drawings of the course for the 1916 Amateur.  The earliest photos we've seen (from the PA Historical Society for example) are construction era and indicate geometric shapes of the bunkers.  We also know there was alpinization (around 9 green for instance).  In 1916 the bunkering was not yet as sophisticated as it would be over the next 10 years or so but it was a far cry from the construction era photos.  The 1916 drawings do not indicate alpinization as well.  So some redesign work was done between the opening and prior to 1916.  We don't know who did what but we know some increasing sophistication was taking place.

This is what I think must have happened:  

CB Macdonald had Wilson travel throughout the UK for seven months after his visit to NGLA.  While he was gone, Macdonald came into town (George Bahto has his train ticket) and advised Pickering to build a God-awful looking geometric golf course.  Straight lines were all over the place.  

When Wilson returned with sketches in hand, the first thing he did was puke.  The second thing he did was hire Flynn and remake all of CB's mess.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Macdonald, Wilson, Flynn??  Who are those guys.

Why, I can recall sitting at lunch at Bent Creek Country Club a few years back when I was introduced to a fellow who claimed his "brother in law was really the guy, not Tom Fazio, who "redesigned" Merion.  

Wish I could remember the fellows name.  I thought it was a particularly interesting choice of words for a "1930's restoration".

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

I'm not sure what that shows about C.B Macdonald---whether the man was a sly fox or a dumb clod, because the everlastingly alcohol addled Pickering could not possibly have created a straight geometric line if his life depended on it.

[Fred_C.]

Michael W-P,

In the days of my youth (early 1990s), I worked on Merion East; specifically, I was tasked with taking care of the bunker surrounds.  I miss the aesthestic of those old bunkers, but I realized even then that work had to to be done on them.  Drainage, weed proliferation, sand consistency, and bees were big problems.  Many were just junky.  Having said that, I just saw all of the Merion August 2004 photos Carlyle Rood posted on his site.  It was said copiously here a while back that the bunker surrounds would be allowed to evolve and grown in, and based on those recent August photos, they really have.  In fact, I actually like them (most of them, anway)!  It's just that kind of sentence, though, that gets people going.  I take the larger point well that Mike Cirba often makes:  let's do a true 1930s restoration, including everything.  I would like to see that, too.  However, I can't wait to see how those bunkers look this coming August, when more of the world will see how good the work really was.

Best,

Fred Chandler
Washington, DC

[Fred_C.]

Oops, I mispoke.  It was Patrick M. that wants a thorough 1930 renovation.  My apologies to Mike.

Fred Chandler

[Patrick_Mucci]

Fred C,

You need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

I never said that I wanted Merion to return to its 1930 configuration, that was a goal stated by some at Merion a few years ago.

[Fred_C.]

Patrick,

Sorry to muddle your thoughts, too.  I for one would like to see the fairway widths enlarged.  But from the pictures that I've seen, I'd be hard-pressed to figure how wide they actually were compared to now.

Fred Chandler

[TEPaul]

Fred C said;

"But from the pictures that I've seen, I'd be hard-pressed to figure how wide they actually were compared to now."

Fred:

The fact is it appears that Merion is really not interested in enlarging their fairways out to the widths they were say in the 1920s or even 1930s but recently they have widened areas of some of them (most notable example--#5 right around the second shot carry bunker). They probably don't see the purpose in doing all that and to be honest I'm not sure anyone over there, or on here, or anywhere for that matter, really knows the specific reasons they were that wide back then. Some on here may say they know why those fairways were once that wide but it's probably just speculation on their part. The super, Matt Shaeffer, though, seems intensely interested in trying to research and run-down exactly why they once may've been that way or even if there was a specific reason.

BUT, if for some reason Merion DID want to restore their fairways ALL THE WAY BACK to the EXACT widths they were in the 1920s or 1930s determining what those widths were to the exact inch throughout the golf course would be no problem at all for our in-house "old aeria"l spy-master and aerial analyst Craig Disher.

All Merion would have to do is supply him with an aerial right over the course today and he could compare it to any old aerial and nail the fairway width back then vs today right to the inch!

[wsmorrison]

That reminds me, Tom.  Craig Disher found a series of very old aerials of Merion taken by that WW I flying ace, Canadian Billy Bishop.  One photo clearly shows CB Macdonald bossing poor Hughey Wilson around and tearing up the sketches Wilson brought back.  Another of the Bishop photos reveals that the alpinization really were piles of empty bottles that Pickering tossed.  Grassed over, they became all the rage.  The last photo shows some Italians taken off the construction crew carving some Carrera marble for the twice life size statue of CB that was going to be at the entrance to the clubhouse.  

[TEPaul]

Here's an interesting little tid-bit about an aspect of the architecture of Merion East that's from the son of the horse whose mouth the story came from. I believe I posted this on here one time before but Richie Valentine said his Dad once told him that William Flynn once said to his Dad, Joe Valentine;

"Joe, I sure wish I could figure out how to make bunkers as good as you and your EYEtalian guys can."

[Fred_C.]

Thanks to all for responding!

Fred

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()