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ian

Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« on: December 13, 2004, 09:27:23 PM »
We collectively cover a lot of ground, but tend to gravitate to the same favourites over and over in discussion. Who are we missing?

I remember going out to play High Pointe when it first was opened to see a course by a (then) unknown designer who did something completely different. I really enjoyed the way the course played and the difference between it and most everything else new I had seen.

Tom has obviously continued to do great work, and we have all given Coore and Crenshaw there well deserved due for excellence. We have read/shared/seen work by Hanse, DeVries, and many others who we find inspirational for their personal approach to design.

I have enjoyed the occasional posting about the work of Jeff Brauer, Rod Whitman, Proctor and Axland, Kyle Phillips, Todd Eckinrode, Brian Silva, David Kidd, and Jim Engh.

What about Curley and Schmidt, Stephen Kay, John Fought, Robin Nelson, Rick Phelps, Gary Panks, Forrest Richardson, Keith Foster or even a lesser known like Scot Sherman, or even Art Schaupeter. What are they doing that is interesting or different? Is any of them going to give us the next great project? Is there another David Kidd just waiting to happen?

Who are we missing, by always gravitating to what we know, rather than finding the next interesting designer or course?

« Last Edit: December 13, 2004, 09:32:47 PM by Ian Andrew »
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ian

Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2004, 09:41:06 PM »
What I'm trying to uncover is the next Black Mesa by Baxter Spann. The designer was unknown to me, but the product clearly is outstanding. It is one of the more interesting projects not done by the usual cast of characters.

These are the threads that I enjoy the most.

The discussion on Rustic Canyon and Barona Creek was so interesting that I made the trip to see both layouts when I found myself going to LA. Both were very interesting designs worthy of a visit and worthy of discussion.
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2004, 09:42:53 PM »
Ian, I have to go out for a bit, but when I get back, I'll post on some.
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ian

Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2004, 09:45:25 PM »
Tommy,

Thank-you, I look forward to your list. I enjoyed your pics from Las Vegas a few days back.


This kind of stems from Sutton Bay. Sutten Bay blew me away from what I could see, and it looks like Marsh may have created another must play golf course. Is he someone who is about to become well talked about on this site?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2004, 09:52:29 PM by Ian Andrew »
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Jason Mandel

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Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2004, 11:22:31 PM »
Ian,

Funny you should mention Scot Sherman.  When I talk about the work done at White Manor, I always say Bobby and Scot, because I really believe Scot Sherman had a lot to do with the finish result.  Bobby spent a lot of time on the site and I think flew in about every other week, but Scot was the on-sight guy and was there almost everyday during the project.  I think a lot of the credit for the finish and detail has to go to him.  I am looking forward to see some other projects from Scot in the future.  

Jason
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ian

Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2004, 07:00:43 AM »
How could I have forgoten Paul Cowley's work at the Patriot.

The Cuscowilla/Patriot offering featured some really wonderful shots of work by Paul Cowley. The green contours looked very interesting, and some of the detail work like the punchbowl looked like a great deal of fun to play.

The only thing that didn't look good was Paul's short game  ;D

Jason,

I have sat and talked golf design with Scot and Paul Cowley when we were all in San Diego. They are both very interested in the same things that most people on the site are interested in. We talked about encouarging the ground game, contouring greens, our favourite courses that are recent (same as what gets discussed here a lot). We also talked restrictions and the other shit nobody here wants to know about, but makes a major difference to what we do.


I have to fly today, but I'll pick this up tomorrow.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2004, 07:01:47 AM by Ian Andrew »
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Tom_Doak

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Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2004, 07:03:34 AM »
Ian,

I have a feeling that most of the people you're looking for were at Archipalooza I or II.  However, I don't know which of them have had the opportunity to build something which will make them better known.
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RJ_Daley

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Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2004, 07:44:34 AM »
Aren't we in a particularly closed cycle in the last few years whereby, the cost of golf course development, causes the developers to only consider the usual suspects among the better known and actively working archies.  Hardly any projects are what I'd consider low budget, or can't be due to land costs, the need to attach housing to pay for the project, etc.  So, Fazio, Nicklaus, and now Doak, and other well knowns are getting the business, effectively not affording the unknowns to get their kick at the cat.  Only once in a while, a project like Wild Horse or Rustic Canyon come along and let unhearlded yet talented fellows have a chance.  Although that isn't exactly true of Hanse in that he has done a number of known projects.  But, Rod Whitman, the Bunker Hill Boys, even Mike DeVries to some extent, don't seem to be getting the call to action.  Where will the great new archies come from if they aren't engaged by more project developers?

All this goes back to golf becoming too costly to develope due to land costs, regulatory extra demands, and need for big names to sell housing complexes.  If the mind set would become more moderate in expectations, and more of the public market would look for quality design rather than glitz and name recognition, we might see more archies come to the forefront...

Also, the place I think one can make a big name for themselves is in the remodel-restoration arena...
« Last Edit: December 14, 2004, 07:46:34 AM by RJ_Daley »
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Mike_Sweeney

Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2004, 07:53:45 AM »
Ian,

I also really like to hear and see the before and after pictures and comments about renovations/restorations. While new courses seem to involve environmental issues as the antagonist, existing courses have a whole list of antagonist from old vs new members, architect vs a variety of things, tree huggers vs tree choppers, distance vs quirk....

I am just starting to begin research on a piece on such a project, and hope to post a "In My Opinion" piece in the 1st quarter of 2005.

I personally think this should be a separate section that Green Chairmen and Supers could use. Maybe you can start the ball with Ran and formalize the Scranton threads?
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2004, 08:10:42 AM »
Ian

Keith Foster is doing a course at the Sandia Pueblo in New Mexico that is expected to open in 2005. The next Black Mesa? I'm game for the trip.

Steve
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mike_malone

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Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2004, 08:21:39 AM »
 I look forward to checking out some of Kelly Blake Moran's work.
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Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2004, 08:52:27 AM »
Two not mentioned in this thread yet whose works I would like to see:  Bobby Weed (Olde Farm, Spanish Oaks) and Rick Smith (Wuskowhan, Treetops Sig., Arcadia Bluffs, Shenandoah at Turning Stone).

I wouldn't mind seeing what Neal Meagher could produce given a good project (yes, Gib can help, too!).

Donald Steel's work seems to be pretty good.  Given a massive budget on a severe propety so different than his usual links-style work, Primland should be interesting.
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Tom_Doak

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Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2004, 08:59:01 AM »
RJ:  There are a number of problems with your post above.

There are projects like Wild Horse everywhere, although few of them are on as good a piece of land as Wild Horse; I mean projects which have minimal funding and need an architect to work for less than they should get.  These are great opportunities for people like Dave and Dan to show what they can do, but after one or two of them, most architects would like to graduate to better-paying jobs.

Once you get to well-funded projects, then most developers are not looking for an "up and coming" architect; they'd prefer someone who is already well known, for obvious reasons.

I am completely aware that one reason people like Dan and Dave and Rod can't find great new jobs is because Bill Coore and I are ahead of them on the list of minimalist designers, and we get first crack at the best projects.  I do feel slightly guilty about that, except I'm sure most of the next generation would be taking those jobs away from me, if our positions were reversed; and I believe that some of the best young people in the business are working for me.

Also, I don't feel so guilty about our current status because Bill and Ben and I were pretty instrumental in developing [or at least selling] minimalism as a style.  It would be different if the other guys you name were doing something really different, but if they were, then we wouldn't be holding them back.

I also don't really agree with you that a young architect can make a big name for himself in the restoration / remodel arena.   Who in your experience has done that?  Ron Prichard and Ron Forse haven't gotten any new work based on all their remodeling, and my best analysis is that only one of my new-course clients was even slightly impressed by the consulting work we had done.  It's just an entirely different arena.
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Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2004, 09:12:16 AM »
Prior to reading Mr Doaks last comments, I was going to suggest Trip Davis as an up and coming young architect with that dreaded word "potential"
I know that the majority of Trips work has been on the restoration circiut, and I personally have not seen any of his work, but from what I have heard he has done a good job.
I do however know TRip as a player and as a person, and I know he will be eager to produce a "golfers" product.
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paul cowley

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Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2004, 09:40:57 AM »
hey ian old buddy.....i hope in the coming year we might get together to play one of our venues ,hopefully yours in summer and mine in winter  ;D

...and then i could tell you about an exciting new course we have planned for the low country....its got 60 acres of dikes and faux ricefields ,in a raynor meets mackenzie format ,with secret hatches to access the back tees, three computerized geysers as hazards , two holes play around a faux oblique dune and oh , did i mention the windmill ?

all the best , p ;)ul
« Last Edit: December 14, 2004, 09:41:43 AM by paul cowley »
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John Foley

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Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2004, 09:52:45 AM »
I want to see more of Kelly Blake Moran after seeing Morgan Hill.

I want to see Jeff Brauer's work after the pics of The Quarry.

How about the works of Keith Foster & Gary Stephenson. We hear about Foster a little, but not much out of Stephenson.

Why has Todd Eckenroad dissapeared from here & what does he have up his sleeve?
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Jason Topp

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Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2004, 10:01:23 AM »
My favorite course in Minnesota, the Classic at Maddens, was designed by the greenskeeper, Scott Hoffmann.  

http://www.maddens.com/page/174-5661.htm

I do not know if he has designed anything else, but I would like to see him have the opportunity.
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A.G._Crockett

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Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2004, 11:30:57 AM »
I've mentioned this before, but Bill Bergin is doing great work here in the SE, IMHO.  His course at Auburn Univ. is excellent, and Michael Whitaker really likes his Woodfin Ridge course in Greenville, SC (which I haven't seen).  He has been asked to do a second course for a relatively new club outside Nashville, and has broken ground on a restoration of a Ross course in Chattanooga.
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Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2004, 11:32:40 AM »
In the world scale of things I suppose Donald Steel is an ELSE, but in the UK he and Martin Hawtree are about as well-known as any natives.  Dave Thomas has quite a portfolio of fairly high profile courses completed throughout Europe and David Williams seems to be landing some (by our scale of things) quite well-funded designs.  Peter McEvoy, too, has landed some nice jobs, such as Powerscourt.  What most of our designers spend most of their time doing is modification either to adapt to the present day game or to address safety issues - rebunkering, re-routing away from roads and paths, and reshaping to avoid the wear and tear caused by buggies and trolleys all using the same route on the course.

Perhaps the most likely candidate for future fame over here is the Faldo team - their work (what little of it I know) does seem to have individuality.  Otherwise we seem to be importing architects for the big-money projects - Kingsbarns, Dundonald, K-Club, Mount Juliet, The Wisley, East Sussex, The London, The Oxfordshire, Loch Lomond.....  I wonder what a native architect might have come up with on the same sites?
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2004, 11:40:00 AM »
Re Schmidt-Curley

They will be doing work at the new Sun City Festival in Surprise, AZ. It may open in 2005.
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

mark chalfant

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Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2004, 11:42:59 AM »
Id like to see more of

Joel  Goldstrand  at  Dakota Winds
Bobby  Weed
Kelly Blake Moran
Doug Carrick and co.
Davis Love /  Paul  Cowley
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2004, 11:45:15 AM »
Kelly Blake Moran's Lederach GC(public) in Harleysville, PA (Montgomery County)should finally open in 2005.
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2004, 12:35:57 PM »
Will KB Moran's Goshenhoppen GC ever get approved to be built?  The site looks pretty good in pictures, rolling farmland.
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2004, 01:37:31 PM »
I must admit that I really like Kelly Blake Moran's stuff I've seen.  I wrote a long article about Hawk Pointe here way before he ever started coming on this board.

Similarly, The Kingsley Club is enough to let me know that I want to see more Mike DeVries courses.

I also wonder what happened to Steve Smyers.  
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Mike_Sweeney

Re:Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2004, 01:44:03 PM »
Quote from: Scott_Burroughs on December 14, 2004, 12:35:57 PM
Will KB Moran's Goshenhoppen GC ever get approved to be built?  The site looks pretty good in pictures, rolling farmland.

There is about a 95% chance that my partner Rich will get a bid that he can't/would be stupid to say no to from a larger developer.

Thus, new developer, new plans. I agree with the above and I hope Kelly gets the "perfect" site someday, as I think he is talented and creative. Same as some of his post here  ;) .
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