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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:So much land and no great golf courses to show for it.
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2004, 04:00:46 PM »
I agree with Dan. Moreover, I don't think Bandon wouldn't have been as successful if it had been built as recently as the 70s or 80s. Much more of a mobile population now and destination golf is much more of a normal thing.

The fact that he chose two (relatively) unheralded architects to design is what makes it all the more amazing. He could have just as easily had a Bodega Bay or Sea Ranch on his hands.

It didn't hurt that he didn't have to overleverage himself, either.  
« Last Edit: December 15, 2004, 04:01:25 PM by SPDB »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:So much land and no great golf courses to show for it.
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2004, 04:40:50 PM »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:So much land and no great golf courses to show for it.
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2004, 05:03:39 PM »
Here's the forcast for Dec 15 for North Bend, OR (just north of Bandon)

Let's go!

Today. Partly cloudy with patchy fog in the morning. Highs in the mid 50s to lower 60s. Northeast winds around 10 mph.

Tonight. Mostly clear except for patchy fog after midnight. Lows in the mid 30s to lower 40s. Northeast winds around 10 mph.

Thursday. Mostly sunny. Patchy fog in the morning. Highs in the mid 50s to lower 60s. Northeast winds around 10 mph.

Thursday night. Mostly clear. Lows in the mid 30s to lower 40s. Northeast winds around 10 mph.

Friday. Mostly sunny. Patchy fog in the morning. Highs in the mid 50s to lower 60s. East winds around 10 mph.

Friday night. Mostly clear. Lows in the mid 30s to mid 40s.

Saturday. Mostly sunny. Highs in the lower to mid 60s.

Saturday night. Mostly clear. Lows in the lower to mid 40s.

Sunday. Mostly sunny. Highs in the mid 50s to lower 60s.

Sunday night. Mostly clear. Lows in the lower to mid 40s.

Monday. Mostly sunny. Highs in the mid 50s.

Monday night. Mostly clear. Lows in the mid 30s to lower 40s.

Tuesday. Mostly sunny. Highs in the lower to mid 50s.
&& temperature / precipitation north bend 57 39 57 40 59 / 00 00 00 00 00

Patrick_Mucci

Re:So much land and no great golf courses to show for it.
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2004, 05:19:03 PM »
SPDB,

Bodega Bay is a residential development with a golf course meandering through it.  You can't compare it, its site and its use to Bandon/Pacific Dunes, which had GOLF as the sole attraction, in a more remote location.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:So much land and no great golf courses to show for it.
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2004, 05:20:40 PM »
Beats the hell out of Minnesota in December.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:So much land and no great golf courses to show for it.
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2004, 05:51:59 PM »
SPDB,

You can't compare it, its site and its use to Bandon/Pacific Dunes, which had GOLF as the sole attraction...

For the moment, at least.

I was only intending to illustrate that if anything less than a stellar golf course was produced, Keiser would have a huge elephant, covered with talcum white dune sand. His margin for error, in my estimation, was razor thin. A golf only attraction, offering marginal, even good golf in a remote location, would be about as successful as your RTJ "representativeness" argument.  ;D (By the way, you were horribly wrong about your conclusions on some of those courses I listed. Didn't you mention something about not drawing conclusions relying on others opinions without seeing for yourself?)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2004, 05:55:02 PM by SPDB »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:So much land and no great golf courses to show for it.
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2004, 06:56:35 PM »
SPDB,

I can't speak for Mike Keiser, but I have to believe the money he initially invested in Bandon was like R&D money, expendable.

I don't think his margin for error was razor thin, I think he had a vision, like so many men who have been responsible for great golf courses in America.  Due to the remote nature of the property, I think he understood that something special HAD to be built in order to provide the lure.

The question that intriques me is:

Could a bad golf course have been built on that site ?

TEPaul brought up a good point about Fownes, Wilson, Crump, MacDonald etc., etc., in that they were all amateur architects who produced spectacular first time golf courses.

I believe the property Mike Keiser purchased was in the 5,000 acre neighborhood, certainly sufficient land to route a SINGLE golf course.  The fact that he bought so much land leads me to believe that his vision always encompassed a multi-course golf mecca, a target destination for golfers near and far.

When a very good golf course was created, he was merely done with one phase of his goal of having an assortment of several very good golf courses, with diverse personalities that would appeal to a broad spectrum of golfers.

Had the first course and the concept tanked.
It was a hit he could well afford, hence I don't see the dire consequence of failure.  The risk/reward was clearly in his favor.

One of the great architectural questions in golf is:
Who will he retain for the 4th course ?

On the last issue you raised, I believe my comments were accurate.

peter_p

Re:So much land and no great golf courses to show for it.
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2004, 07:17:32 PM »
Patrick,
     Pebble Beach, et al. I stayed at the Lodge and played Pebble Beach for about $100 in 1969. My comment on Bing and TV is that this exposure gave the Monterey destination worldwide publicity and eventually allowed the $400+ green fees, and the building of Spanish Bay, et al. I don't dispute it was a destination before the clambake. The Seventeen Mile Drive and its scenery is a spectacular draw.
     Keiser's success at Bandon has had a lot of coastal cities look at golf as a method to diversify, but what plans I've seen
are anemic, looking to capitalize on spillover rather than produce quality courses. Building average courses isn't going to cut it in the current market.
     Maybe Jeld-Wen can lead the coast out of the wilderness. Peter Jacobsen is their spokesman.They have a good record of resort development. A partial list includes Eagle Crest in central Oregon and Running Y near their corporate HQ in Klamath Falls. They're starting a new resort and course near Bend called Brasada Ranch. The success of Central Oregon as a golf bonanza baits the question of why the coast can't do likewise.
           
         

Patrick_Mucci

Re:So much land and no great golf courses to show for it.
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2004, 07:29:01 PM »
Peter Pittock,

I can't see a corporation producing a great venue.

I haven't seem many statues commemorating committees or Boards.

A unique individual with a vision ..... and money, would seem like the only logical source of greatness.

I agree with you, if these cities/counties think they can put forth a half baked product and reap the rewards, they're in for a rude awakening.

There's no doubt that the Crosby/TV connection catapulted Pebble to the public's eye.  But, when I used to watch the tournament and see them playing in the cold rain or snow, it didn't exactly whet my appetite in January.

North Bend's a pretty big facility, but I don't think the golf course can support more then an occassional flight or two per day.

And, from my neck of the woods, Bandon isn't a one day destination, it's a multiple day trip/vacation, and as more courses are added, I would imagine that average hotel stays will lengthen by a day or three.

What I'm also surprised at is that the Coqui (sp ?) Casino hasn't been refurbished and promoted.  Gambling, and all that comes with it, makes for interesting night life just 30 minutes down the road.


peter_p

Re:So much land and no great golf courses to show for it.
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2004, 08:03:43 PM »
That's why Jeld-Wen may be our ticket. Their managament has been golf and destination resort oriented. Instead of each city doing their own thing we need a comprehensive growth plan.
The last election cycle Oregon passed Measure 37, which will loosen regulations on how a property could be used. The governments will either have to let landowners use the property according to regulations in effect at the time of purchase, or compenstate them for loss. It's very poorly written and it may end up with native americans in charge of everything.
The Coquille Indians run the Mill Casino at the north edge of Coos Bay. No reason why they couldn't build a golf complex somewhere in the area, but there are already 45 holes in the immediate area, with a population base of 30,000.

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