[Patrick_Mucci]

In talking to Tommy Naccarato about the Oregon Coast, which is magnificent, and Governor West's efforts to preserve it, I posed a question to him because he is so familiar with the area.

Why is it that until Bandon, there were no great golf courses between San Francisco and Astoria ?

And, other than Bandon, there doesn't seem to be any prospect of a new, great course on the horizon.

Why is this ?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Pat-

  You didn't specify...do you mean Astoria, Queens?  

Seriously, though...I'm hypothesizing here--could it have something to do with the state's environmental protection laws?  

I have seen maps of the coast, and it appears much of it is state or national parks--this may have something to do with it.

I forget where I read this, do we have any native Oregonians here, or could Tom Doak or Tommy Nac weigh in?

Thanks

DRB

[Patrick_Mucci]

Douglas,

California is a hostile environment to develop in, yet Bodega Bay sits on the Ocean and a coastal bluff.

I would imagine that Oregon has traditionally been more developmental friendly.

On one of the most beautiful, lengthy, coastal stretches in the universe, there isn't a great golf course.

Why not ?

[SPDB]

Pat -
Keiser took a risk. I would imagine the demand just wasn't there. I was blown away by the Oregon Coast, and while it presents terrific land for golf, the pristine state it is in rigt now is something to behold. Its amazing in that land like that on the East Coast would have been gone eons ago. I was surprised there wasn't much of a wknd/summer community, but then I dipped my toe in the ocean.

North of Florence the coast is either: 1) too extreme to build on, 2) state park, or 3) populated.

There is still (i believe) a decent amount of private property between Gold Beach and Coos Bay/Florence. Point well taken about CA, but there is a lot of great land north of Mendocino/Fort Bragg, with tremendous headlands.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I have my own perfect little piece of linksland all set out for me on the coast of Oregon. Only a few know about it--Slag, John V., Peter and Mike Erdmann. They know exactly where it is, and the land is reminscent of St. Andrews-style links--Grade AAA CHOICE TOP CUT IT DOESN'T GET ANY BETTER THEN THIS linksland.

It too is a State Park. That is until I, Tommy Naccarato win this Saturday night's California State Lottery where I can take my winnings and parlay it on the crap & roulette tables of Las Vegas and then become the Master of my Domain so-to-speak. I'll be King--ME, ME, ME.......

I will then buy my linksland parcel from the State of Oregon in exchange for water rights, baseball, softball and soccer fields for all of the communities near the coast. Maybe even rebuild Highway 101 and even pay for it to be properly patrolled by so desperately needed State Troopers.

In return, the state gives me my land where I can build not one, but two courses and a small fishing village with quaint shops for wine, cheese and maybe even a really good French restaurant--all real working places designed to operate in and around the golf community. Dan King will be the proprieter of the corner-front golf store and will sell his wares and spin a few tales for all that want to hear. I'll even allow a few of you to rent office space--at a premium price--in exchange for the rite to play the course everyday at lunch.

Oh yes, I have a dream....

A dream that is going to allow golfers from the world around while visiting Bandon, to come-up for a quick round or two. It will be like they dipped themselves in waters of their youth to know what is good, and what golf is all about in this fair land.

Oh yes, my dream has all of this--tee times spaced 15 minutes apart so you don't have to worry about 3 1/2 hour rounds so you can play both courses in under five hours. There will be greens that will make Tom Doak mumble for hours, telling himself over and over, I was the one that taught him all of this....I was the one that taught him all of this.....  And he can come there and play anytime he wants.

I had a dream....

[paul cowley]

tommy ...i love you tommy and ....dreams  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Announcing here that the West Coast Design Offices of Davis Love II will be located in Yachats.......

[SPDB]

is this land around Yachats? I had thought there was very little coastal land around there for golf (e.g. Heceta Head)

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Nope. As you can see there is plenty of land left in that area.

[Mike Erdmann]

In regards to Oregon at least, I think there are many reasons for the lack of great golf courses, but at the top of the list are demographics, weather and strict land-use controls.  Coos Bay is the biggest town on the coast south of Astoria, and even then, it only has 15,000 people.  Might only be two or three other towns above 5,000.  The coast is one of the poorest areas of the state, incomes are low and it's become even more depressed over the past couple decased with the shift away from a natural resource based economy (logging & fishing).  The weather pretty much sucks 7 months of the year, and is only decent at best for the remainder.  And of course, Oregon's strict land use laws ain't exactly cooperative when it comes to siting a golf course.  Mike Keiser took a monumental risk when it came to Bandon.  Fortunately he had the cash and the passion to persist through years of permitting.  I would imagine that other developers in it to make a dollar would find safer places for their money.  But now that he's shown it can be done, I think more courses will be coming.  The Pacific Gailes course has been proposed near Sandlake north of Lincoln City, but is tied up in the permitting process.  The city of Astoria has a proposed course somewhere in the works as well, but I've lost track of what the status is there.  Not that it's a given that these will be great courses, but the Beltz Farm property is pretty stunning dunesland and certainly has the potential if done right.

[peter_p]

Patrick,
      Until recently we've been too far away from population centers for a destination resort to be feasible. More than 50% of the US lives more than 3 hours by air from Portland. The Northwest was an afterthought when planning a vacation. Oregonians going to the coast for a vacation had golf as an afterthought.And the ones that come would only be from blue states. The tourist board is just beginning to see golf as an advertisable attraction, but enviros are still fighting golf as a method for economic growth.
      Except for Robert Trent Jones (Sr & Jr) non-local golf architects didn't even know we existed until we were discovered by Rees. Our best known golf architect was a Bunny. Doak said our best golf courses were a five. He's right.
       Oregon coastal cities are small. Except for Coos Bay (15,000) everything else is below 10,000. They're also poor.
Most golf courses are nine-holers. The only golf resort is Salishan near Newport. It suffers mightily in the competition as an upscale resort.
        You can add the Washington coast, too. All nine hole courses except for Ocean Shores, which was built in the 60s and had Pat Boone promoting it hard. It isn't even listed in The Golf Course book. That's okay because it underwhlems  
       

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy, et. al.,

What about the coast from San Francisco to the Oregon border ?

Why are there no great courses in that zone ?

If Spanish Bay can be built on the Ocean, why couldn't others ?

[JohnV]

Pat,
Much of the land north of San Francisco is not good for golf.  Mountains go straight down into the sea in many areas.  There are a few areas like Bodega and in the far north around Eureka and Crescent City that are flatter.

Once you get into Oregon there are areas around river mouths where courses could be developed and then other stretches where nothing could be done.  But, due to economic and population issues I think most people would have said you couldn't make any money there until Bandon came along and proved different.

There have been attempts such as Gearhart (one of the oldest courses west of the Mississippi), Salishan and Sandpines over the years, but not a lot.  Some smaller courses like Ocean Dunes and Coos Country Club have been built that have some value.

There is a course that has been proposed near Pacific City, but it is being fought by environmentalists at this time.  There was also a proposal for a major development near Astoria, but I don't know the status of it.

Environmentalists are just as active in Oregon as in California.  Mike Keiser was smart enough to work with them and has had a lot more success than others.

[George Pazin]

There's tons of land like that in Nebraska....

Correct me if I'm wrong (and this is an honest question), but wasn't Keiser's "If you build it they will come" the first real success of this nature? Seems like heretofore most if not all courses were built close to population centers.

Modification: Obviously this leaves out private ventures like Sand Hills.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Redanman,

How do you explain Cypress Point and Pebble Beach ?
They're not near population centers and don't have the best weather.

One would think that somewhere, not far from Eureka a great golf site exists on or right off the coastline.

[peter_p]

Pat,
Bing Crosby and TV. Rich people buy homes there.
Another factor is ocean water temperature. Most of the time the water is too cold to
enter without a wetsuit.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Pat, I also feel is is demographics and weather. The last 20 years have brought land use issue more into play as well. Cypress and Pebble are 2 to 3 hours from a major population center and 6 hours from another. It is on the northern edge of year round good weather as well. It is also tied to the life of Samuel Morse.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tommy, I do love your dream. It is not far from mine. i have not picked out the land as yet though

[SPDB]

Pat - There is a splendid land that I have already picked out in N. Cal. It is privately owned sits on an estuary and has small rumpled coastal dunes. It is not nearly as dramatic as Bandon, but only in terms of elevation.  It may be the finest available spot left in America....or at least I think so.

Its proximity to a watershed and its dubious location in CA, make it an impossibility that it would ever happen.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Peter Pittock,

Cypress and Pebble existed long before the Crosby, TV and enclaves of rich people.

Weather seems to be a significant factor, but when I see a golf course like Bodega Bay I have to wonder, don't people who live around that area take the weather for granted ?

And, weather doesn't seem to deter Americans from traveling thousands of miles across an ocean to foreign soil to play the courses in Scotland and Ireland, not exactly the mildest of climates at any time of year.

Something is missing.

Can Mike Keiser be the only bright guy with the idea to come along in 100 years ?

[JohnV]

Patrick, Monterey was an early capital of California as well as a very well off fishing town.  Plus the military was there with Fort Ord and other facilities.  Also, Samuel Morse was a visionary much like Mike Keiser who realized that if he built great golf courses   people would come.  Monterey is also a lot closer to San Jose and San Francisco than Eureka is to anything.

[Andy_Lipschultz]

North of Yachats are a number of B&B's than go right down to the shore and are not part of any state park. I got a bunch of photos I took 10 years ago on my honeymoon (no, not those sort of photos) of the immediate area that I'll get scanned then post.

[Dan Herrmann]

My take on it, as a Oregon resident from '85 - '93 is:
1.  The land is dynamic.  Slides, erosion, etc. are constant threats
2.  It's a long way from population centers
3.  The entire Oregon coast is publicly owned.  And access must be granted to the public.
4.  It rains a lot.
5.  Did I mention that it rains a lot?
6.  There's a lot of igneous rock from volcanos - this rock isn't very easy to work with.
7.  The dunes from Florence to the south are a unique area - north of that is very tough topography.  There's some nice places around Tillamook, though.
8.  Oregon is current pretty depressed from an economic standpoint.  Not a lot of capital flowing around today.
9.  It rains a lot.  
10.  Lack of 'glitz and glamour'.  Hey - if I could live anywhere in the world, it'd be somewhere between Yachats and Bandon.  But that isn't most people's cup of tea.  Personally, I like waking up at 2am because the seals were too loud.
11.  While 0% sales tax is great, the 9% (when I live there) state income tax is pretty steep.

Also - I've often wondered why where isn't any golf in the Coast Range that seperates the coast from the I-5 corridor.  Can you imagine playing up near Saddle Mountain  (off US26) and seeing the ocean 10 miles to the west?  That'd be cool!

The Oregon coast is heaven!

[JohnV]

Dan, It might not be heaven for everyone but thanks to the rain it will never be hell, the fires would keep getting put out.

I had a house at Salishan from 1989 to 1997 and loved going over to the coast on the weekends.  But, I also knew a couple from Edmonton who would go back to Canada in the winter because the weather was too lousy at the Oregon coast.  I think that says a lot!

[Dan Kelly]

Can Mike Keiser be the only bright guy with the idea to come along in 100 years ?

Yes. Or, more likely, the only bright guy with the idea and the resources -- financial and (more vitally) otherwise.

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