[Mark Brown]

**New Draft -- for Patrick and TEPaul

New clubs and balls are making the game easier -- although they are taking shot-making out of the game, but...

Technology in maintenance equipment (spurred on by private club ego-maniacs) are killing us, (and I'd like to kill the person that made the practice of over-seeding popular)

Green speed problems have already been beat to death but I must say I'd rather not play some of the "classic" courses, like Oakmont, at the green speeds I have experienced.

*I think 10 on the stimp is a  happy medium

I've had enough character building -- how about some fun.

Technology and maintenance (and design):
       Can we cut the fairways any shorter, so there's no margin for error -- let's hand mow and roll them (then we can drive dues and green fees up even more)
Or how about more landscaping in the form of tall grasses and ornamental plantings so we can waste more time looking for lost balls. The most hated chore in golf -- not to mention the cost of new balls.

And let's cut the chipping areas a little shorter so there's no grass and we have to putt from everywhere. Or make the fairway bunker faces higher (Fazio) so we can play backwards

*Putting can be a good option to chipping, but they named them chipping areas for a reason. I like the ground game as much as anyone.

*Fazio - every fairway bunker (about 50 of them) at Berkeley Hall North has a face of 4 to 10 feet. I have nothing against Fazio, he has shown us how to make something out of nothing. When I played TOC I didn' hit it in any bunkers.

And how about some bigger greens so you can't focus on hitting the ball close enough to the pin to two putt. Or how about having 7 tiered sections on each green (greens within greens) so 3 putts are considered good. Let's not cut any cups on flat areas either. It's too easy.

*There's nothing wrong with big greens if they are created for a reason (like wind and to create varying risk/reward pin positions) but the greens I am talking about are just big for no shot-making reason and it's hard to focus on hitting it close to the pin.

And enough of the "crowned" (fact or fiction?) Ross greens so if I hit a good approach shot I don't have to hit a wedge after the ball rolls 30 yards down the hill. Is this fun and cool?

*I believe Pete Dye's real observation that the crowns on No.2 are exagerated because of decades of top-dressing -- and the playability of the greens and surrounds was way over the top in the U.S. Open. -- although not as bad as Shinnecock.

*How about some shaping that collects balls instead of repelling them across the cart path and into the ornamental shrubs and grasses.

And isn't over-seeding great? You can play on soft, soggy greens all year. They're either transitioning in or out or trying to reestabish the Bermuda base (which you actually play on for about 45 days a year). No roll on your tee shots or approach shots -- so the new equipment and balls don't do us any good.

*Although there are times when light overseeding is necessary for marketing reasons it basically ruins the golf experience in much of the Southeast. I like the option of playing the ground game.

No wonder the game isn't growing. If I wasn't in the golf business and didn't travel I'd probably quit the game I used to enjoy so much on the munis that didn't have irrigation.

I'm a little frustrated. Is anybody else?

I wish I could live across the pond where every course and shot is different. Not a bad idea.

Long live Prestwick and The Old Course!

*At TOC you can avoid most of the fairway bunkers by playing to the left side of the playing area.

Thanks for letting me vent. I have to play in the morning.

 ** In America we tend to make everything so complicated and competitive that we lose sight of the reason we play games. To have fun. Golf also builds character but it doesn't have to be so distressing -- and expensive. The game hasn't grown for 15 years because newcomers are not welcomed, the courses are so difficult and expensive and most people with families don't have 5 or 6 hours every Saturday to play regularly. My trips to Scotland, Ireland and England woke me up to much of this as does going back to the muni I grew up on in PA. Golf in the gated communities of the sunbelt are making the game exclusive rather than inclusive and the land is so costly it's very hard to build affordable courses on the coasts where everyone is still moving.

I have a small company that is going to try to build less penal courses with 2 or 3 six-hole loops and have special programs for beginners, women, kids,etc. to welcome them to the game, but it's not going to be easy to build them where they are needed.

I guess that is the real source of my frustration. I grew up playing a great 9 hole muni for a $15 annual membership. What has happened to our values and priorites. I must confess, I'm tired of play my past clients' designer courses that make it difficult to break 80 and I am blessed in that I don't even have to pay most of the time.

We have taken a game that originated on the "unusable" areas between the coast and the farmland in Scotland and turned it into a multi-million dollar exercise in socially and politically correct exclusivity. Maybe I need to get out of Hilton Head, clear my mind and try to find a sensible place to live that exists for people of all kinds to share their love of the game.

I guess my vent was a lot deeper than it first appeared to be

"There's a quote I have: "Sometimes a man must protest, not to change the world, but to keep the world from changing him.

Perhaps I need to take some time to think about that.

All the Best, Mark

[Marc Haring]

Mark.

Couldn’t agree more. I am responsible for the set up of a parkland layout and right now we’ve got that sucker playing about as easy as it’s ever been I’m widening up the fairways, the greens are slowing down for the winter and we’ve given the long rough its annual cut and collection. I played it the other day on a mild winters day along with many others and managed to knock it round in about 7 under my handicap. I loved it, we all loved it, we all persuaded ourselves that the quality of our golf was to blame and we all love the fact that there are hardly any shots where we crap ourselves on the tee.
Two problems though. It is becoming very hard to get a tee time and it is becoming quite hard to count all the money.

[Sean_A]

Mark

When you say across the pond a cord was immediately struck.  One of the biggest differences between USA and GB is money.  The members of clubs in GB are for the most part unwilling to pay the vast amount in subs to support American style maintenance.  Consequently, most courses tend to play differently each time one plays.  Often the fairways have not been mowed or sometimes the greens haven't been mowed.  

Greenkeepers don't seem to concentrate as much on consistency as operating reasonably within fairly tight budgets compared to the USA.  In the States courses tend to be well looked after and the greens much smoother (and quicker), but the price to play these private (and many of the top public courses) clubs is silly.  Speaking with some members of a club, they said the cost per game was in the region of $100 at their own club (given the fact that the course is closed for 5 months a year)!  The approximate cost per round for me is $18 and this is for two clubs!  Where is the value?  Isn't there common ground here?

Ciao

Sean

[TEPaul]

Mark Brown:

I'd like to see another "vent" on exactly how you'd like to see things be.

[mikes1160]

 
Mark, looking at your client list, I dare say most of them are high-ticket layouts that demand seven figure maintenance budgets.  Also, how can you blame maintenance equipment and not address the new hybrid grasses, growth regulators, topdressing, verticutting, etc.?

[RJ_Daley]

Would one of the warm season turf grass specialists discuss the summer viability of dwarf blue grass in the sustained heat?  As for cool season areas of the country, from the better maintained courses I have seen with dwarf blues on fairways, they are actually a more desirable surface (IMHO) than bent fairways.  What say the rest of you?  I do believe that dwarf blues can be maintained at 1/2" with more conservative irrigation and fert cycles.  Would that be correct, supers?  My understanding is that blues only have a bit more suseptability to fairy ring, but are better at defending other diseases that attack bents.  

If any or all of that is true, then it seems to me that for a firmer faster fairway, potentially cheaper to maintain, why not spec dwarf blues more often, even in warm season areas?

Technology can be a hinderence or a help.  Technology will ultimately give us cheaper mowing costs. Turf tech shold give us wider tolerances in fertility, water quality, and disease resistences, all of which "should" reduce costs.  

Greens surrounds turf management is a big factor to me.  I like chipping hollows wide apron cuts, and rough cuts several ft off the putting surface.  That is a personal preference.  But, managing fescue in those surrounds is very difficult primarily for disease suppression, as I understand it.  But, I like the Rustic Canyon wide short cut bent surrounds.  Unfortunately, the bents need more water, thus become too soft for the ideal surface that one would logically want to go with the presentation of the wide surrounds.  

Darn, it is always something, if it isn't one thing, its the next...

[Mark Brown]

Patrick

You're such a curmudgeon I'm not even going to respond to your egotistical remarks. If you think I'm intmidated by your jaded jargon, you're wrong.

I have met the enemy and it is you.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Brown,

If you're afraid to answer questions concerning your statements, or explain the contradictory statements you made, that's okay with me.

Obviously, despite protestations to the contrary, you are intimidated by intelligent questions.

[A.G._Crockett]

I risk being corrected by some of the supers on here, but if that happens, I'll learn something, so here goes.

Most of the private clubs here in the deep south don't overseed anything except the tees.  Dormant bermuda is perfectly fine as a playing turf, and, under certain combinations of weather conditions, overseeding with rye tends to retard the green up of the bermuda in fairways come spring.

Overseeding is done primarily to achieve a green "look" on either CCFAD's or courses aiming to sell real estate.  Otherwise, it is a needless expense that causes more problems than it solves.  In fact, I would prefer playing off dormant bermuda; winter rye always seems "sticky" and really doesn't add much if anything to the playing conditions.

[George_Bahto]

Patrick: you are a pisser!

gb

[Mark Brown]

A.G.

You're right on the button. Overseeding is just for looks to sell real estate and retards the growth of Bermuda in the spring.

In SC they normally overseed at least tees and greens and usually fairways and sometimes wall to wall. Dormant Bermuda is a great playing surface and plays firm and fast.

Some developers are cutting back and at least one, Curahee, a dramatic new Jim Fazio design in the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains, isn't doing it at all. When they exlplain it to their members and prospects they understand and agree with it.

[Mark Brown]

Mike,

The new hybrid Bermudas do help superintendents to mow lower and speed greens up, and I don't blame the superintendents (at least not most of them). The decisions are ultimately made by over zealous members on the greens commitees who are hell bent on having the fastest greens and prettiest courses, no matter the cost or how it affects playability by the members at large.

[Mark Brown]

 Patrick

I have no need, or desire to gain your approval and don't involve myself in trying to tear people down. Why don't you post something original and we'll have some fun on this site, as intended by its founder.

Merry Christmas, and may my Lord Jesus Christ bless you and your family in this joyous season.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Brown,

A few years ago, cloudy conditions existed for a very extended period of time in South Florida in January and February.  Rains accompanied the cloudy conditions.
Courses that didn't overseed where in dire condition.
On other occassions the winter weather is optimal and overseeding results in a deterioration in playing conditions as the course transitions in and out of the overseeding process.

Since Florida tends to be a seasonal destination for many golfers, and since noone has yet perfected predicting the weather, perhaps overseeding serves as a valueable form of insurance.

Unless of course, job security is not high on your priority list.

As to your vent/rant.
On one hand you trash huge greens and deep faced bunkers while on the other singing the praises of TOC.

How do you reconcile the obvious contradiction ?

And, you attempted to tear Fazio down, so why did you object to my post which merely questioned you ?

Don't be so thin skinned.

I too, hope you and your family enjoy the holidays and good health in the coming year.

[A.G._Crockett]

Patrick,
How would overseeding reduce the dire conditions caused by rainfall in Jan. and Feb. in FL?  Overseeding doesn't make it any less wet, I can assure you.  We've had over 3 inches of rain in Atlanta in Dec. already (average for the month is 3., and wet is wet, whether overseeded or not.

I think that any resort area in the SE that is a winter escape route for those used to ONLY green grass on their golf courses are going to overseed for marketing reasons; looking at dormant bermuda is an acquired taste at best.  It can look pretty bleak, especially on a cloudy day in Feb.  But honestly, very, very few private clubs in the SE overseed anymore (with the exception of tee boxes).  Additionally, most schools no longer overseed playing fields; it only serves to slow things up in the spring, if not screw things up.

[Mark Brown]

Patrick, TEPaul and others

*Please see my revised original draft

[Patrick_Mucci]

AG Crockett,

The cloudy, cool weather decimated the bermuda, the excess rain in a relatively dry winter only added to the problem for courses that didn't overseed.

I think you'll find that overseeding in southern Florida and Desert climates is still an active practice.

When private clubs are at capacity and have waiting lists, it has nothing to do with marketing.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mark;

Thanks for the rant.

While I don't agree with all of your points, I agree with your major thrust about the game getting away from affordable and fun basics.  My post today on "Nightmare before Christmas" echoed similar themes.

By the way, what muni and nine-holers in PA did you grow up on?  Perhaps we can share war stories.  

[Mark Brown]

Mike

1) please see my updated version of the original post

2) I grew up in Erie, Pa -- right on the lake
The 9-hole was par 32 and had 5 par-fours over 175 yards -- name was Glenwood GC. Later I played a long muni called Downing (no fairway irrigation) it played differently every season

3) The best course was a great Ross design called Kahkwa CC and 4 or 5 other really good courses

4) Other PA courses I've played are Riverside, Oakmont, Stonewall (original), Huntsville (one of Rees best), Merion.

I've been at Hilton Head for 23 years now. Come on down.

All the Best,
Mark

[Mike_Cirba]

Mark;

Ahh...I grew up in the other northeast corner, although I do recall hearing of Downing, and of course, Kahkwa, but I've never played north of Pittsburgh.  Glenwood sounds a lot like Scott View in terms of length and functionality.

I agree that Huntsville is one of Rees's best courses, but I also left wondering if such a gloriously rolling, spacious property had been fully utilized, especially when a few really awkwardly forced holes such as 13 are in the mix and it ends with such nondescript closers.

I'm hoping to make it to Hilton Head before too many seasons.  I've been to Kiawah, Charleston, and of course, Myrtle (no true public golfer on the east coast has truly lived without a trip to "Mecca" , but I'll be sure to look you up at HH someday before too long.

[A.G._Crockett]

AG Crockett,

The cloudy, cool weather decimated the bermuda, the excess rain in a relatively dry winter only added to the problem for courses that didn't overseed.

I think you'll find that overseeding in southern Florida and Desert climates is still an active practice.

When private clubs are at capacity and have waiting lists, it has nothing to do with marketing.

Patrick,
I'm sure you know best; its just that I've never seen bermuda grass "decimated" by cloudy, cool weather in Jan. and Feb.  In fact, I don't know exactly what decimated would mean in this context.

Winter kill can happen, but only when temperatures go to single digits and teens for extended periods, and often not even then.    For instance, we haven't had significant winter kill in Atlanta now in at least 4 years.  Overseeding does nothing to prevent winter kill, but it does make it a little harder to see what has happened if the winter rye is slow to die out the next spring.

Again, overseeding of fairways is strictly cosmetic, as I understand it from conversations with various sources, including supers.  The exception to this, of course, would be tee boxes, and some bermuda greens.

I know that you know more about golf in the SE than I do, but in my limited experience in 52 years in the SE, I just don't see many private courses (with or without waiting lists!) overseeding fairways here in the early 21st century.  I know that you'll reply to this, and that I'll be proven wrong, so I'm done with the discussion.  Congratulations in advance!

[Bill_McBride]

I agree on the overseeding discussion as it reflects the large majority's desire for lush conditions year round.  Lush as in over watered and green.  I prefer the underwatered dormant bermuda personally, but both public and private club golfers seem to prefer green.  We still overseed our tees (a necessity) and our greens (not necessary in my opinion and that of most turf experts) here in Pensacola.  Winter kill shouldn't be a factor, but fear of winter kill is.  The resulting difficult spring transition to my mind isn't worth the peace of mind about an almost non-existent concern.  It takes quite a few weeks for any excess growth from poa trivialis seed that is washed to low spots on the greens to die out after transition, so the surfaces can be spotty on the front of the greens if there was a lot of rain immediately after overseeding.

On the subject of keeping golf affordable, Rustic Canyon is certainly the poster child, along with Wild Horse which I haven't seen.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

Technology in maintenance equipment (spurred on by private club ego-maniacs) are killing us, (and I'd like to kill the person that made the practice of over-seeding popular)
I think it's a double edged sword.
Technology has benefited many a golf course and golfer.
[/color]

Or how about more landscaping in the form of tall grasses and ornamental plantings so we can waste more time looking for lost balls.

Ornamental plantings happen to be a pet peeve of mine.
They divert dollars from more important line items on the budget, and take the memberships eye off the ball/course.[/color]

Or make the fairway bunker faces higher (Fazio) so we can play backwards

Haven't LOB wedges made this necessary ?
On one hand you/we complain about high tech and on the other you/we complain about efforts to counter it.[/color]

*Fazio - every fairway bunker (about 50 of them) at Berkeley Hall North has a face of 4 to 10 feet. I have nothing against Fazio, he has shown us how to make something out of nothing. When I played TOC I didn' hit it in any bunkers.
I wouldn't expect that you hit all 50 bunkers at Berkeley Hall every time you play that golf course, either.  But, not hitting it into any bunkers at TOC shouldn't keep you from observing and evaluating the bunkers on TOC.

I play a C&C golf course regularly, and the bunkers and their faces, are far from benign and have 4-10 foot faces[/color]

And how about some bigger greens so you can't focus on hitting the ball close enough to the pin to two putt.
I'm not sure I understand how this is possible.  Could you elaborate ?[/color]

Or how about having 7 tiered sections on each green (greens within greens) so 3 putts are considered good

If it serves a tactical or strategic purpose I don't see anything wrong with multiple zones within a green.[/color]

*There's nothing wrong with big greens if they are created for a reason (like wind and to create varying risk/reward pin positions) but the greens I am talking about are just big for no shot-making reason and it's hard to focus on hitting it close to the pin.

Again, I"m not sure I understand the concept of a green so big that you can't focus on hitting it close to the pin.  Could you elaborate ?[/color]

And enough of the "crowned" (fact or fiction?) Ross greens so if I hit a good approach shot I don't have to hit a wedge after the ball rolls 30 yards down the hill. Is this fun and cool?

*I believe Pete Dye's real observation that the crowns on No.2 are exagerated because of decades of top-dressing -- and the playability of the greens and surrounds was way over the top in the U.S. Open. -- although not as bad as Shinnecock.

I would think that top dressing, rain, wind and mowing would cause just the opposite effect, flattening high spots.
Just look at the picture of the 5th green at Somerset Hills and you can see where the elevated ridge is scalped and thin.[/color]

*How about some shaping that collects balls instead of repelling them across the cart path and into the ornamental shrubs and grasses.

I'd agree with that.  I've seen "ball catching" features at both Ross and Tillinghast courses.[/color]

*Although there are times when light overseeding is necessary for marketing reasons it basically ruins the golf experience in much of the Southeast. I like the option of playing the ground game.

Don't you think that's difficult, if not impossible, to accomplish in tropical and semi-tropical areas ?[/color]

*At TOC you can avoid most of the fairway bunkers by playing to the left side of the playing area.

That assumes that you can control the ball under all kinds of conditions, and that's not easy for the average or even good player.[/color]

The game hasn't grown for 15 years because newcomers are not welcomed,

I can't agree with that.[/color]

the courses are so difficult and expensive and most people with families don't have 5 or 6 hours every Saturday to play regularly.

Pace of play is a detractor.
From what some on this site post, Rustic Canyon seems to prove that a golf course that's fun and affordable can be created.[/color]

My trips to Scotland, Ireland and England woke me up to much of this as does going back to the muni I grew up on in PA. Golf in the gated communities of the sunbelt are making the game exclusive rather than inclusive and the land is so costly it's very hard to build affordable courses on the coasts where everyone is still moving.

You can't compare the acquisition, remediation and development costs on the old courses in the UK to golf on new courses in the Sun Belt[/color]

I have a small company that is going to try to build less penal courses with 2 or 3 six-hole loops and have special programs for beginners, women, kids,etc. to welcome them to the game, but it's not going to be easy to build them where they are needed.

Hasn't that always been the case in America ?
Where courses were built on the outskirts of the population centers and then the population centers expanded to the outskirts.[/color]

We have taken a game that originated on the "unusable" areas between the coast and the farmland in Scotland and turned it into a multi-million dollar exercise in socially and politically correct exclusivity.

Modern day acquisition, remediation and construction costs play a large roll in this.  How many great golf courses were built in Scotland in the last 10-20 years ?

If Mike Pascucci's family had owned the Sebonack property for 250 years do you think the membership costs would be as high as they're projected ?[/color]

[Mark Brown]

Patrick,
Technology in maintenance equipment (spurred on by private club ego-maniacs) are killing us, (and I'd like to kill the person that made the practice of over-seeding popular)
I think it's a double edged sword.
Technology has benefited many a golf course and golfer.
*I think the helpful technology with equipment and balls has been more than offset by stringent maintenance practices and penal design features. I shot 76 at Pine Valley (a career round) and am having a hard time breaking 80 at many of the new courses around Hilton Head.

Or how about more landscaping in the form of tall grasses and ornamental plantings so we can waste more time looking for lost balls.

Ornamental plantings happen to be a pet peeve of mine.
They divert dollars from more important line items on the budget, and take the memberships eye off the ball/course.

Or make the fairway bunker faces higher (Fazio) so we can play backwards

Haven't LOB wedges made this necessary ?
On one hand you/we complain about high tech and on the other you/we complain about efforts to counter it.

Because of egos courses are designed and maintained to play harder (protect holy par) so I shoot higher than I used to.

*Fazio - every fairway bunker (about 50 of them) at Berkeley Hall North has a face of 4 to 10 feet. I have nothing against Fazio, he has shown us how to make something out of nothing. When I played TOC I didn' hit it in any bunkers.
I wouldn't expect that you hit all 50 bunkers at Berkeley Hall every time you play that golf course, either.  But, not hitting it into any bunkers at TOC shouldn't keep you from observing and evaluating the bunkers on TOC.

I love TOC because of the contours, firm turf and unexpected good and bad breaks. It's quite easy to find the fairway bunkers at Berkeley Hall -- automatic one shot penalty

I play a C&C golf course regularly, and the bunkers and their faces, are far from benign and have 4-10 foot faces

And how about some bigger greens so you can't focus on hitting the ball close enough to the pin to two putt.
I'm not sure I understand how this is possible.  Could you elaborate ?

If big greens don't have good definition that allows you to focus on one part of the green I find it hard to hit it close, and long, level putts are the most boring shot in the game, not to mention the high potential to 3 putt. It's easier to hit a straight tee shot on a tree-lined hole than on a poorly guarded wide hole.

Or how about having 7 tiered sections on each green (greens within greens) so 3 putts are considered good

If it serves a tactical or strategic purpose I don't see anything wrong with multiple zones within a green.

I agree, I was just exagerrating to make a point. Hardly any architects mix small greens with large greens anymore. Variety is the spice of...

*There's nothing wrong with big greens if they are created for a reason (like wind and to create varying risk/reward pin positions) but the greens I am talking about are just big for no shot-making reason and it's hard to focus on hitting it close to the pin.

Again, I"m not sure I understand the concept of a green so big that you can't focus on hitting it close to the pin.  Could you elaborate ? See above.

And enough of the "crowned" (fact or fiction?) Ross greens so if I hit a good approach shot I don't have to hit a wedge after the ball rolls 30 yards down the hill. Is this fun and cool?

*I believe Pete Dye's real observation that the crowns on No.2 are exagerated because of decades of top-dressing -- and the playability of the greens and surrounds was way over the top in the U.S. Open. -- although not as bad as Shinnecock.

*When they top dress evenly it preserves the contous in the greens but it also elevated them from the green surrounds, causing the crowning effect.

I would think that top dressing, rain, wind and mowing would cause just the opposite effect, flattening high spots.
Just look at the picture of the 5th green at Somerset Hills and you can see where the elevated ridge is scalped and thin.

*How about some shaping that collects balls instead of repelling them across the cart path and into the ornamental shrubs and grasses.

I'd agree with that.  I've seen "ball catching" features at both Ross and Tillinghast courses.

*Although there are times when light overseeding is necessary for marketing reasons it basically ruins the golf experience in much of the Southeast. I like the option of playing the ground game.

Don't you think that's difficult, if not impossible, to accomplish in tropical and semi-tropical areas ?

There's a happy medium when you overseed lightly. It produces a green cast without damaging the Bermuda and the transition time.

*At TOC you can avoid most of the fairway bunkers by playing to the left side of the playing area.

That assumes that you can control the ball under all kinds of conditions, and that's not easy for the average or even good player.

The game hasn't grown for 15 years because newcomers are not welcomed,

I can't agree with that.

I attended the recent Golf 20/20 Conference which was aimed at growing the game by making it more inclusive, reducing the intimdation factor and expanding the market to more women, minorities, juniors, couples, busy executives, etc. One women speaker explained the difference between how men and women think it was both eye-opening and a good laugh. We're doing better but there's a lot of room for improvement. I'm trying to build innovative golf courses that address the time, affordability and learning obstacles.

the courses are so difficult and expensive and most people with families don't have 5 or 6 hours every Saturday to play regularly.

Pace of play is a detractor. Due to hard courses and looking for lost balls.

From what some on this site post, Rustic Canyon seems to prove that a golf course that's fun and affordable can be created.

My trips to Scotland, Ireland and England woke me up to much of this as does going back to the muni I grew up on in PA. Golf in the gated communities of the sunbelt are making the game exclusive rather than inclusive and the land is so costly it's very hard to build affordable courses on the coasts where everyone is still moving.

You can't compare the acquisition, remediation and development costs on the old courses in the UK to golf on new courses in the Sun Belt.

You're right to some degree but some of the construction and clubhouse expenditures are insane. A lot of money is wasted.It's not glamorous and ego-building to build affordable courses.

I have a small company that is going to try to build less penal courses with 2 or 3 six-hole loops and have special programs for beginners, women, kids,etc. to welcome them to the game, but it's not going to be easy to build them where they are needed.

Hasn't that always been the case in America ?
Where courses were built on the outskirts of the population centers and then the population centers expanded to the outskirts.

I'd say yes, since about 1990. That cycle will continue.

We have taken a game that originated on the "unusable" areas between the coast and the farmland in Scotland and turned it into a multi-million dollar exercise in socially and politically correct exclusivity.

Modern day acquisition, remediation and construction costs play a large roll in this.  How many great golf courses were built in Scotland in the last 10-20 years ?

Kingsbarns, Chart Hills (a great Smyers design), Loch Lamond and quite a few in Ireland -- so many that too many Americans are going there -- they're spoiling our hidden secret. Imagine having a Ryder Cup in Ireland on a parkland Jack Nicklaus (or Arnold Palmer) design -- it's absurd. It's all about money. Technology, rather than reducing our work week to 30 hours has raised it to 50 hours because of more information and competition.

If Mike Pascucci's family had owned the Sebonack property for 250 years do you think the membership costs would be as high as they're projected ?

Yes, because the demand is still there -- unless he kept them low for the good of the game.

Cheers. and "Don't break your driver and your putter in the same round."

[Jason McNamara]

I prefer the underwatered dormant bermuda personally, but both public and private club golfers seem to prefer green.  We still overseed our tees (a necessity) and our greens (not necessary in my opinion and that of most turf experts) here in Pensacola.  

Bill,

Does the number of rounds affect the decision to overseed greens?  I would think courses with more traffic are more likely to overseed.  Here (Houston) we aren't overseeding our greens - fine by me - but we only have maybe 2,500 rounds between December and March.  (Curiously, we are overseeding fairways for the first time... if there's an interesting reason for that I'll report back.)

Jason

ps.  Everything is very well watered, given we had 11 inches of rain in November.    

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Call to undefined function theme_linktree()