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Paul_Turner

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Autumnal Somerset Hills
« on: December 11, 2004, 10:44:48 AM »

The REDAN 2nd


4th and 6th greens.  Tillie in his Alpinisation phase.  Can't see the strong tilt in the green here.


V tough, long par 3 8th.


Looking back.


Tee shot 9th.  Tillie's trademark cross hazard for second shot on this par 5.


Pitch to the 10th.


Tee shot 11th (foreshortened).  Great hole- dogleg right.  12th green in distance.


Looking back.  You can just make out the severe slope in this green.


Celebrated 12th.  Back tee


Forward tee.  Big tilt back to front on this one.


Looking back on 13th.


Side on of the 13th.  See the crazy swale.


Tee shot 14th.


Looking back up the short par 4 14th.


15th tee!


Back


16th: green cants, hard, left to right.


Tee shot at 17th.  Some GCAers think this hole is weak.


Looking back.

Lost my shot of 18th.





« Last Edit: December 11, 2004, 03:13:47 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

SPDB

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Re:Autumnal Somerset Hills
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2004, 11:26:52 AM »
Had to rub my eyes (and my memory) for a second there.
The REDAN 3d ???

The adjacent 4 and 5th greens? I knew Tillinghast was a master router, but to route back to back par 4s that end at adjacent greens would have been quite a feat.  ;D


Bill_McBride

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Re:Autumnal Somerset Hills
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2004, 12:05:02 PM »
That might be the most beautiful set of par 3's I've ever seen.  The long 8th fits in, big green, how long?  #16 Capilano is like that, it's 230 yds with a very large green open in front.

Thanks for your usual wonderful photos, Paul!  Looking forward to seeing you at Deal.  Assuming you'll be there of course.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Autumnal Somerset Hills
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2004, 12:15:12 PM »
SPDB,

The 4th and 5th greens aren't adjacent to one another.

Paul typoed it. You're lookiing at the # 4 and # 6.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2004, 12:17:24 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re:Autumnal Somerset Hills
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2004, 12:21:21 PM »
Paul great pictures.  Late afternoon sun works better than those gray English skies?

For me the interesting thing is those smallish mounds in the green on the 8th hole.

F. Hannigan needs to get out there with a blower.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

SPDB

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Re:Autumnal Somerset Hills
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2004, 12:48:25 PM »
Pat - I know, I've played SHCC (hence my awareness 1) that the redan was mislabeled as the 3d hole, and 2) that 4 and 5 are par 4s (as well as 6)).  Given your predilection for questioning, I am surprised that the Socratic irony was lost on you.  

TEPaul

Re:Autumnal Somerset Hills
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2004, 01:12:21 PM »
I could be wrong but it sure always looked to me from the old photos of SH's redan that there was a significant amount of fairway area in front of and past that bunker on the right. If so, I wish they'd restore it.

Glen Rapoport

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Re:Autumnal Somerset Hills
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2004, 01:27:15 PM »
Paul,
ditto on the quality of the photographs. Can you share with us the name of the camera and the lens used to produce such nice photographs?

Glen

TEPaul

Re:Autumnal Somerset Hills
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2004, 01:36:02 PM »
SPDB:

You don't think that madcap architecture genius Tillinghast could route holes one after another that had greens adjacent to each other? Well, then, it shows how little you know about Tillinghast and his unique brand of architecture known as "flask architecture"---Ye of little faith. Towards the end of the day when Tillie's flask was nearly empty and Tillie had grown remarkably smart because of that there was virtually no telling what-all he could do either design or routing-wise. Obviously, you've never been aware of Tillie's unique "Boomerang" or "Ground Saver" hole!!! That hole could play out and then double back almost whence it began which would mean it's green could be just adjacent to the previous one the golfer had played.

Never underestimate A.W. Tillinghast's cleverness because if you do he'll fool you every time!

(the design of the "Boomerang" or "Ground Saver" hole can be seen on p. 66 of the book "Gleanings from the Wayside).
« Last Edit: December 11, 2004, 01:38:21 PM by TEPaul »

Paul_Turner

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Re:Autumnal Somerset Hills
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2004, 03:15:13 PM »
OOOPs with some of the hole numbering.  Not sure where that came from!  Corrected now.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Tyler Kearns

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Re:Autumnal Somerset Hills
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2004, 04:10:53 PM »
Paul,

Nice photos. What do people not like about #17? I have not played there, but it looks like the drive should challenge the right hand side fairway bunkers so that the large tree guarding the left side of the green does not need to be considered. I know some people here abhor trees that serve as hazards....but in moderation.

TK

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

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Re:Autumnal Somerset Hills
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2004, 06:43:31 PM »
Paul,

Not quite as good of colors as your pictures (which were awesome by the way) but here are a few more (early) Autumnal shots from SH.  A couple of them while not being as spectacular color wise show some of the green contours more.

So anyway here we go...


Again not the color explosion that Paul had as the day was not as clear, but it shows the great contour of this wonderful Redan #2.


I just loved these wild/quirky contours at the back of the 5th green.


Foliage behind the 7th green starting to pop in mid October.


9th green complex with the clubhouse behind.


View of the 12th hole minus all the leaves.


Great view from behind the 12th green across the 11th green in the distance, the 18th hole up on the hill and the clubhouse beyond.  (See two pictures from now for the view back down the hill).


This shows the "trough" through the center of the 13th green that Paul mentioned a little clearer.


It is hard to beat sitting on the balcony of SH clubhouse above the 18th green as the sun sets  looking down on the 11th green down the hill, and the 12th green way down beyond the lake.  All I could think as I took this picture is "Its a great day to be alive in America!!!!"

Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

TEPaul

Re:Autumnal Somerset Hills
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2004, 07:44:26 PM »
In my opinion, if a golf course can run greenspeeds at 10 or above (as SH does) and cut those contours on the back of #5 without scalping the green the technology of things like floating head mowers today is really something else.

Patrick Mucci:

do you see the contour on those rolls on the back of #5? If you want to figure out how to restore the in-line rolls on GCGC's #12 go check with Somerset Hills maintenance department!  ;)

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:Autumnal Somerset Hills
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2004, 08:01:46 PM »
The 12th has to be one of the coolest water hole par 3s in the world. Its simplicity is breath-taking.
jeffmingay.com

RJ_Daley

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Re:Autumnal Somerset Hills
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2004, 09:46:55 PM »
There can't be any question that fall is truly the best time for golf.  Thanks gents for sharing some spectacular photos. ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

TEPaul

Re:Autumnal Somerset Hills
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2004, 05:25:47 AM »
"The 12th has to be one of the coolest water hole par 3s in the world. Its simplicity is breath-taking."

Jeff:

For some reason that hole has not been very popular with some on this website---not sure why. I recall David Eger had some not particularly complimentary things to say about it as did Matt Ward. I like the hole and the back half of it is particularly hard to play to and putt on---it really cranks right to left!

I'd like to find what David Eger said about it on here years ago but I doubt I could find it. As for what Matt Ward said about it---I wouldn't bother with that as just about everythng he says about architecture should be taken with a very large grain of salt!   ;)

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Autumnal Somerset Hills
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2004, 11:36:06 AM »
TEPaul,

Encroaching trees may have created a problem with the play of the hole.  At one time, the rather small back tee, completely in the shade, was a problem as well.

The old joke was that you didn't want to win that hole in match play because that meant you teed off first on # 13.
The walk from 12 green to 13 tee was straight uphill and most had to wait a few minutes to catch their breath.

I remember the hole when you could drink from the spring that was located beside the path to the green.
They even had a metal cup for your convenience.

Not unlike the 13th at NGLA with the ladel.

It's a neat transition hole.

Daryl Boe,

Wonderful pictures, especially the ones showing the contours in the greens.

Have you ever seen the pin on the front slope of # 13 ?

Or back on # 5 ?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2004, 11:42:43 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Steve Lapper

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Re:Autumnal Somerset Hills
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2004, 03:46:10 PM »
Pat:

   2 years ago, on day two of the Met Am, the pin was in the front 3rd of the 13th green and the back left side of #5. I was caddying for a friend in match play and remarked on five that this would be the sole time anyone might actually wish to be over the back of the "dead elephant." He hit it there and made the only birdie of the day!

    On 13, the eventual runner-up, Michael Qualigno hit one of the greatest short (downhill god-aweful lie) flop shots from off the left side of the green, through the biarritz trough to snuggle to tap-in on the front pin. My friend Peter & I looked at each other and remarked, "that's it, we're done!" I still think of that shot every time I visit that hole.

    The 12th is indeed an under-appreciated hole by many here, but one of the favorites of the SHCC membership and a tricky devil if the pin is anywhere low left. I've seen a few putts head right past such a cup and into the pond....not a pretty look on the fellow holding the flat stick!
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Autumnal Somerset Hills
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2004, 04:09:23 PM »
TEPaull,

do you see the contour on those rolls on the back of #5? If you want to figure out how to restore the in-line rolls on GCGC's #12 go check with Somerset Hills maintenance department!  ;)

I think it's an excellent idea.

While the mounds at # 5 at SH aren't as pronouced as the orginals at # 12 at GCGC they would work well with a sympathetic restoratation that incorporated them within the putting surface, rather than an interpretive restoration that would place them outside of the putting surface.

It's a great idea.  I just can't believe that you thought of it.
Did Coorshaw have a paw in this ?
[/color]


« Last Edit: December 12, 2004, 04:09:54 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re:Autumnal Somerset Hills
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2004, 07:49:37 PM »
Paul and Daryl-

  Thank you for the pictures...nothing like it to stoke the competitive fires during an intentional layoff from the game!  

  I was here once for a meeting, and I haven't seen much of this golf course.  Just a few questions for the treehouse:

1.  What greenspeed do these greens stimp at?  
2.  The slope of the Redan (hole #2) looks quite severe, more severe than other pictures of Redans I've seen.  Is this true, or does the slope of the hill provide an optical illusion?
3.  What's the appropriate play here, under firm and fast conditions?  Straight ball or cut shot over the third bunker (moving from L-R in the photo)?
4.  The pond appears to be quite close to the green on #12.  Does this ever create problems in the spring with the pond flooding and damaging the green?  If so or if not, how is the pond managed?

Thanks, in advance.

-DRB
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Steve Lapper

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Re:Autumnal Somerset Hills
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2004, 07:11:06 AM »
Douglas:

    As I have the good fortune to play here quite frequently, I can hopefully answer your questions.

1) With weather conditions steady and not extreme, the greenskeepers typically run the stimp close to 10-11. The greens drain well and surfaces are pure poa annua, thus are capable of getting up to 12-13 with no real effort other than 2X cutting and 2X rolling. The members prefer them fast and typically 11 is plenty swift given their contours.

2) The slope of the #2 Redan is indeed quite severe from the left side of the front 1/3 (going from R-to-L) The pix posted here do a good job of revealing just how sloped the pitch is. Inside the middle of that slope is a funnel-like channel that will not stop a right-to-left moving ball but, with a pin inside of it (as is often the case), will allow for a recovery shot from underneath(the front below bunker) to possibly get close. I would tell you the slope is slighly more severe than Shinnecock's and NGLA's with identical greenspeeds, however given the size of the front right 1/3 of the green, more benign and forgiving with a properly played shot(banked into this area).

3) Under the conditions you mention, the only shots that work are a PERFECTLY PLAYED cut over that 3rd bunker or a well-placed 1-2 degree draw into the middle of the green's right 1/3 area. If any shot, cut, straight or draw, is taken at any pin any part left of center, say "bye-bye" and walk your way around to the low left of the green to find and play your ball. The good news is that your next shot is straight uphill with a moderate l-to-r break and par is obtainable. The bad news is that should your tee shot have a little too much heat and end up on top and behind the green, a double-bogey is staring you in the face. Same might be said (although a 4 is possible)for any weak shot left on the front right 1/3 when the pin is lower left.
     The fun play is to sling a low and mild drawing wind-cheater into that right 3rd and watch it climb and hopefully die at the green's crest. I've seen an Ace occur that way and I have nearly made one myself with that trajectory.

4) The pond at 12 freely and easily drains over a waterfall that can't be seen until you climb the hill up to the 13th tee. The green, although abutting the water with no more than a 3-4 inch buffer at it's lowest point, rises quickly and has never, to my knowledge, been flooded. It is, as Pat mentioned, wickedly sloped back-to-front and right-to-left yielding few birdies and lots of bogeys for an otherwise straight-forward little wedge.

 What is hard to see from the photos is how tough 16 is. That 160 yd (tips) par 3 slopes very hard l-to-r and back-to-front and is responsilbe for ruining plenty of rounds.

 Take a closer look at #8, a 225yd (tips) monster of devils hole. The green appears flat and large from the tee...only to reveal, once you get there, a wickedly mini-mounded surface that might have been used as a pallete for NASA to build a model moon-lander! It is common for an otherwise wonderful tee shot that ends up within 10 ft, to easily yield a maddening 3 putt. At this point, most every golfer I've ever shared that course with, wishes they could just head 25 feet left and play the Redan over and over again as it is infinitely easier to par than #8!

Hope that helps!! :D
« Last Edit: December 13, 2004, 07:17:01 AM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

TEPaul

Re:Autumnal Somerset Hills
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2004, 07:30:29 AM »
Steve:

Two springs ago I sat down at lunch and had a conversation with the green chairman at SH during the Compher Cup (a merit team from the GAP against a merit team from NJ). We talked about the greens, the percentage unpinnability of some of them, the contour of them, particularly how they cut those extreme contours on the back of #5 and also about potentially doing something with the 10th hole. I can absolutely assure you that even if someone may have told you so that golf course does not run greenspeeds in the range of 12-13 on the stimp (as in stimping on a flat surface). That would be a virtual freak-show on that course and would make it virtually unplayable for anyone. They had the greens ratcheted up for that Compher Cup and they were in the 10-11 range, no more, and the course was really challenging at that speed. 12-13 on the stimp on any course with greens like SH would be a total waste of time and effort!

Doug:

On that redan, when I last played it during that Compher Cup mentioned above the best way to play to a back left pin was to hit the ball directly to the first third of the green where the "kicker" is and just let the ball release slowly left and down! That Tillinghast redan is truly magnificent and it's unique for a redan in a couple of ways. The front third of the green is right at the tee, the so-called "kicker" is about a third of the way into the green and is created by that large mound/shoulder off the green on the right that merges into the green. From there the green and the ball fall left and down.

Steve Lapper

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Re:Autumnal Somerset Hills
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2004, 08:43:46 AM »
Tom,

    I NEVER said they run them at those speeds, only that they were capable of getting there with otherwise undesirable but often practiced elsewhere 2X cutting & rolling!

    That said, when the weather promotes fast and firm, the greens do get maddeningly fast and do roll at 10-11. I've spoken to the greenskeeping staff enough to realize that they don't push the speeds, but 10-11 does happen plenty of times.
   
    I don't disagree that given the contours and slopes present, high stimps are not desirable and a total waste.

     I think I explained the same to Doug about how to play #2. The "kicker" is absolutely the target for those experienced with seeing a back or any part down left pin.

 ;)
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

TEPaul

Re:Autumnal Somerset Hills
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2004, 09:06:00 AM »
Steve:

Yes, I see you didn't say SH runs speeds of 12-13. Didn't notice that at first. It's very rare to see a golf course run stimp speeds at or near 13 although plenty obviously say they do. The only one I know that really does and has is Oakmont. The super told me that one time during a State Am I was officiated, I said is it really that fast and he wiped out a stimpmeter and stimped a few greens. It was 13!!

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