[Rick Shefchik]

On another thread, Matt Ward says this about Sutton Bay, which he otherwise praises:

"The issue of one-dimensional routing for me is a major issue with the Agar layout."

I know others have debated this with Matt at GCA in the past, but I've had the pleasure of playing Sutton Bay since I read that thread, so I'm taking this opportunity to register my opionion on the matter:

I profoundly disagree.

From my perspective, the out-and-back routing at Sutton Bay is A.) wonderful, B.) almost unavoidable, given the confines of the land used for the course, C.) at worst two-dimensional (half of the holes play with the wind, half against, is the way I see the dimensions) and D.) at best a minor issue, if you consider it an issue at all, given all the positives that the course has to offer.

I'm no one to tell Matt or anyone else how they ought to respond to a course, but in my opinion, the out-and-back routing of the course is a refreshing throwback to some of the oldest links course in existence. Almost all the courses you will play have nines that start at and return to the clubhouse, and change directions often enough to provide a changing variety of wind patterns. And that's fine -- who could complain? But should every course play that way? Not in my book. I found it extremely challenging and entertaining to battle the wind for 9 holes on the way out and then try to figure out how to throttle back on the way in. So your mindset changes from one nine to the next, rather than one hole to the next -- so what? You still have to hit the same number of shots into and with the wind, and given a few doglegs, angled holes and errant shots, you'll have plenty of crosswinds to deal with, too.

I'm not suggesting an out-and-back routing ought to be standard. Frankly, I'm not interested in a standard. I'm interested in an architect finding the best holes he can, given the budget he has to work with, and if the holes he ends up with meander all over the lot or are laid out and back like two strips of bacon, so be it.

I acknowledge that Matt doesn't like routings like this. I posted this simply to say, I do.

[Tyler Kearns]

As I stated in the aforementioned thread, the routing at Sutton Bay is really a function of the land used to build the course upon. I do prefer to play in all the directions of the compass, but if that's not possible, then why force it? In the case of Sutton Bay, if holes ran perpendicular to the current layout, then the uphill & downhill treks would be rather severe, and given the limited dimensions, may pigeon-hole the routing. Further, I can only imagine the lake floods during the spring, thus limiting the available land even more.

The #1 new private ranking is well deserved - an ideal golfing experience.

TK

[Dan Herrmann]

Cape Breton Highland Links is another great example of an out and back course.  If that's a sign of being one-dimensional, sign me up for more!

Congratulations to Sutton Bay and our friends in the Dakotas!

[Gene Greco]

And one musn't forget one of the five most beloved courses on this website, National Golf Links of America, is an "out and backer."

[Dan Kelly]

Here's what I like about an out-and-back routing -- especially at a big, wide-open place like Sutton Bay:

Unlike a more typical, around-the-compass routing, the out-and-back arrangement gives each round the definite feel of an odyssey -- of travel to and from a distant land.

There's no Cyclops to be found, and no Sirens that I noticed -- but keep your eyes open for the Rattlers. I can assure you: Those are not at all mythical beasts!

[SPDB]

Gene -
But don't forget, out of 18 holes, NGLA has 5 that cut against the out and back routing. Granted, only one of them moves in a westerly direction, but still...

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Certainly as mentioned there are many beloved courses on this site that are basically out and back routings.  Also I found there to be enough variety to the holes directionally within that general out and back loop that I certainly didnt feel like any holes in a row played the exact same from a wind standpoint.  Not only are there slight variations in direction, but the different shots called for also makes the holes not play "the same"

Here are a couple pictures I thought you might find interesting to this discussion.  

First an overall aerial pictures that shows the overall property of the course and surrounding area.  It gives you a little feel for the uniqueness and remoteness of the property...


The next is my attempt (feeble as it may be) with my limited skill and ability to show the rough hole directions.  Although it is kind of grainy I think it does the job.  I zoomed in, cropped, and tried to lay down some rough lines of play for the holes, as best as I can.  I have placed the hole number for each hole where the tee is located so that you can tell direction.  Although the holes way out in the distance are quite distorted because of the perspective, I think it still shows the general direction changes nearly on every consectuive hole...


In hindsight I should have used different color lines for the inbound 9 as some of the holes are hard to figure out way out at the end of the loop.  Specifically the 9th a par 3 playing out that is kind of obscured with the inbound 11th hole (a par 5).

I hope this gives some here more of a sense of the property and layout.

[Dan Kelly]

Thanks for the aerials. Even after eight rounds there, I'm surprised
by how much "not Out" Nos. 2 and 5 are.

Are you sure you have No. 5 tee where it belongs?

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Hey now that I look back on the layout, the whole thing from above kind of looks like a sheppards crook.  That is a cool idea, I cant belive no one ever thought of that before.  

With all the golf courses that have been laid out in all of history you would think that there would have been one that had that general shape.

[SPDB]

Turboe -
NGLA has a similar shape, only not as dramatic (it seems).

[Lance Rieber]

Guys, is that a practice green in the lower right underneath the 1st tee, and do they have a clubhouse and practice area near the course?  I don't see any roads that lead to what I think is a building. The other question I have is, are the walks between green and tee as far as they look?Thanks
Lance

[Dan Kelly]

Guys, is that a practice green in the lower right underneath the 1st tee, and do they have a clubhouse and practice area near the course?  I don't see any roads that lead to what I think is a building. The other question I have is, are the walks between green and tee as far as they look?Thanks
Lance

Yes, that's the practice green.

The clubhouse is a long (mile-plus), circuitous cart ride from the course, up on a bluff.
As you go down and then back up to the 1st tee, you pass the par-3
course and the driving range.
There's a third-way/two-thirds-way "shack" (Swampy's Shack) at the confluence of 6 green/7 tee and 12 green/13 tee.
The course is walkable, if you're determined to walk it, but there are
some pretty decent, rocky, up-and-down hikes to be made between
some greens and tees. We decided that, for us, it was a cart course.

[Lance Rieber]

Thanks for the reply Dan.
Lance

[Tyler Kearns]

Daryl,

Just to correct a small mistake on the centreline routing that you presented. No. 7 is not really a dogleg left, but a straight-away downhill hole. The tees are located in fairly close proximity to No. 14 tees.

TK

[Mark_Amundson]

Daryl:

You did quite a job on the aerial with the yellow lines.  Some day you will have to teach me some of your computer skills.  A few of your lines are off a bit;  #5 the line is a little too much east/west.  The dark bumps just to the right of the line are the tees.  #7 is quite a bit different than drawn.  The tees are very near the beginning of the line making it almost a straight hole.  #9 runs a little more east/west than shown on the line, it is fairly hard to see because it is in the distance on the picture.  #12 tee is a littel more to the east so the line would start almost between the 1 and the 2 of the number 12.  Overall you did a great job and after looking at it I am still impressed with your computer skills.

Mark

[Mark_Amundson]

What I really meant to write for #7 was that the tee starts very near the yellow line for #13, thus making it a farily straight hole, as pointed out by Tyler.

[Michael Whitaker]

Daryl,

Are we going to take Mark up on his offer and visit Sutton Bay this spring for a "routing seminar." I spent an hour tonight talking with John Lefoy about Sutton Bay. He thinks it is one of the best courses he's ever seen.

Mike

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Here is another try at this.  I have made a couple changes per some of the feedback to try to make it as best I can.  I have also made the inward 9 holes in red to differentiate.

Also note I have made it apparent that both No.s 15 and 16 give you the option of playing either side of somewhat alternate coridors.  This gives you the choice depending on how agressive of a strategy you want to employ and what shot shape you prefer.

Hope this helps.



ps I have a couple pictures I took while out there, but alas I need some sleep tonight.  So if there is interest maybe I will do it tomorrow.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Daryl,

Are we going to take Mark up on his offer and visit Sutton Bay this spring for a "routing seminar." I spent an hour tonight talking with John Lefoy about Sutton Bay. He thinks it is one of the best courses he's ever seen.

Mike

Yes we are.  Mark had just emailed me a few days ago to remind me that sometime this winter/spring we need to plan just such a trip.  I look forward to hopefully making it happen.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Here are some more pictures as I promised.


View of approach area on 1st hole at SB (taken from up on ridge where 18th tee is located)


6th hole a neat par 4 with options off the tee depending on how far you hit the tee shot (or want to hit the tee shot).  Shorter players play down the right side, but are left with a tougher approach.  Feelin' long try to carry the left side to the lower fairway area and you are rewarded with a much easier approach.  Anyone know what the carry would need to be for that tee shot.  I am saying well over 250 carry I would guess.  (FYI I didnt even try the left side.)


Greensite at the par 4 7th.


Par 4 12th hole heading back in.


Skyline green approach to the Par 4 14th hole.


16th hole from the back tee.


A little closer in view of 16th hole approach.


Tee shot that faces you on the 18th hole.  There is alot more room than it appears at first glance from the tee.  This is an intimidating tee shot the first time around, but it really is pretty straightforward once you have seen it from the fairway the first time.

Any thoughts?

[Tyler Kearns]

Daryl,

It should be noted that the strategy of hole #6 does not only reward the longest carry off the tee. The terrain also allows shorter players to hit a draw the runs hard from the right hand side fairway to the left section of fairway, thus opening up the green to an approach shot. One of my favorite holes on the course!

TK

[Mark_Amundson]

Daryl:

Good pictures, you should take up golf photography.  You asked about the carry on the 6th hole.  It is 285 from the Skull tees and 262 from the Rattlesnake tees.  It is slightly downhill and usually downwind so many times the ask is not that big.  Never, never try it into a north breeze!

Mark

[tonyt]

Daryl,

Thank you immensely for giving me the pleasure of adding to my Sutton Bay pics file, in size and in quality. The first aerial has just usurped an awesome pic from Barnbougle Dunes as my December wallpaper.

[Matt_Ward]

Rick:

I'd like to take a moment and respond.

I believe a routing of a course is second only to the nature of the site / land a course has.

Sutton Bay possesses a very unique and splendid site -- no question. You the golfer can enjoy the surroundings of the property without all the intrusive clutter that far too often exists when you play the game.

With that said -- the routing for me is critical because it is the one way for the architect to maximize all the aspects of th site and to permit the GREATEST range in hole movement, length and direction.

If someone deliberately routes a course in the manner that Sutton Bay chose that's an issue determined by the folks there. Clearly, you can have solid "individual holes," but the totality of the course should maximize the greatest variety possible in my book.

When you play a course and the wind can effect play -- either for you or against you -- for 5+ plus holes in a row then the highest marks for a diversified routing that I look for becomes less and less of an outcome.

I never said Sutton Bay wasn't a fine course or that the "individual holes" there are poorly done. The routing for me is the "maximization" of the site -- the way by which you don't permit players to "settle in" with a particular wind for a number of holes and with that can come an extreme difference in how each side plays depending upon the strength of the wind that day.

Let me give you an example -- when you have such a neat starting hole like the 1st it clearly goes in a specific direction -- the 2nd, a delicious par-3 -- goes in a different direction. The player must make adjustments to the terrain and to the wind direction -- whatever it may be. The same thing happens when you play that gorgeous par-3 17th set in that box canyon type setting. After that you move to a different direction and terrain presentation with the closing hole.

One of my personal favorite courses in all the world is Muirfield in Scotland. As many on this site likely know Muirfield constantly moves in different directions. The course does not play simply "easy" or "hard" because of one general wind direction. Such is the case with Troon -- a wonderful layout but one handicapped IMHO by the "easy" front and "tough" back because of the presence of a wind pattern that forces such a one-dimensional pattern.

Muirfield, on the other hand, is a very sophisticated routing plan that calls upon a supreme effort by the player to gauge the wind and make constant adjustments.

To be fair when I played Sutton Bay it was a one time visit and the wind was indeed brutal -- out of the northwest at a steady 35 mph with even higher gusts at times.

I salute the people there and in winning the 2004 Best New Private from Digest, however, for me at least, the routing is the second critical aspect behind the actual quality of the land used. Sutton Bay went with a clear decision to use the routing it has.. I, as a rater, understand that, but reserve the right to provide my own assessment. No doubt others will feel differently. Viva la difference.

[Rick Shefchik]

Matt --

Well-stated, as were your earlier comments about the course -- which, as I noted in my opening post, you have had much praise for.

As you say, vive la difference.

(One note: I believe we faced winds of 25-35 mph one of the days we were there, less on the other day. But I'll bet a calm day at Sutton Bay is as rare as a U.S. Ryder Cup win.)

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