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Adam_F_Collins

Re:5 Architects and 5 Courses to represent 150 years of GCA
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2004, 12:36:47 PM »
C.B. Macdonald's work at NGLA went against the grain, and shifted the tide of architecture. That is very, very signifigant, and should not be discounted. In the world of architecture, he initiated a new age of design, and that age is exemplified by NGLA.


Can someone elaborate a little more on this? How did he go against the grain and shift the tide?

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:5 Architects and 5 Courses to represent 150 years of GCA
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2004, 01:15:00 PM »
Adam,

What set NGLA apart from the courses that preceeded it?

1-Macdonald realized that any parcel of land was not good enough, and thus spent years searching for the ideal site (sandy loam, undulation & near the sea). He recognized that securing the proper land was half the battle.

2-NGLA could boast of 18 great holes, a course without a weak link. This was part of the reason Macdonald desired to create his "transatlantic translations". He admired the courses of Great Britain but was dismayed that they always contained a few weak or mediocre holes. Why? The basis of the hole designs for NGLA came from these great holes abroad, and the strategies of said holes were built in whole or in part at NGLA.

3-NGLA did not define the line of play! Golf became more of a chess match, with players plotting their way around the course - assessing the numerous risk/reward challenges of each hole.

4-Macdonald experimented with new strains of grass in order to obtain better turf conditions & built a turf nursery for such experimentation. He built the greens at NGLA in layers of soil, seaweed & sand to foster better putting surfaces, and installed irrigation (greens only) for the same purpose.

5-When nature could not provide the ideal terrain, Macdonald improved the site by hauling in huge quantities of fill to achieve the desired design.    

6-Macdonald sought the expert advice of many people to better accomplish his goals. Design - Walter Travis, Devereux Emmet, H.J. Whigham; Engineering - Seth Raynor; Agronomy - C.V. Piper of U.S.D.A.

7-Finally, cost in terms of time. Macdonald spent nearly ten years (8yrs planning/design - 2yrs construction) to complete NGLA. This gave him the time to get the details right, or to correct problems that became evident during construction.

Cornish & Whitten write "It would be accurate to say that Charles Blair Macdonald and The National Golf Links of America revolutionized golf course architecture".

TK

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:5 Architects and 5 Courses to represent 150 years of GCA
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2004, 01:41:52 PM »
Brian,

In regards to C.B. Macdonald, you wrote, "Yes, he changed the profession and the way of thinking of design but what else did he really, really do?".

I agree that Colt was more prolific, was an equally talented architect and that his influence is measured on a global scale - and that probably qualifies him as arguably the best of his era. However, C.B. Macdonald's work at NGLA went against the grain, and shifted the tide of architecture. That is very, very signifigant, and should not be discounted. In the world of architecture, he initiated a new age of design, and that age is exemplified by NGLA.

TK
Colt was not only more prolific he was more an architect than CB Macdonald was.  Yes, CB created a masterpiece but what else has he done..?

...and I, similar to Adam would like to know how he shifted the tide?  What tide...the tide of the dark ages of design that had moved from the British isles to America?  

Colt had already made drastic changes to the way of thinking in laying golf courses by this time, he was the first of his kind not to be a playing professional.  

Don't forget he had laid out Rye by 1901, in fact it was finished in 1895.

In July 1901 he as appointed Secretary of Sunningdale and started to make dramatic changes to Willie Park's design.

Even at Alwoodely where Colt was the architect and MacKenzie construction supervisor, MacKenzie's greens were re-built because they were too severe...

The point with Colt, is not how many decent golf courses the company produced but how many genius golf courses he designed.  The influence on us European architects is FAR FAR greater than CB Macdonald.

CB Macdonald may have influenced a move away from the dark ages of design in America but he has not influenced as many architects outside of America as Colt has...don't forget...nearly all of the holes CB created at NGLA are copies of the 'originals' that we already have in the British Isles.

I love the following quote from Mr Fred Hawtree cited from Colt and Co. -

"The course displays his mastery of the essential quality of layout, the solid foundation without which no amount of elaboration can succeed.  His work thus lies closer to modern ecological thinking than much that is undertaken today.  There is indeed a danger that any further spread of the drastic re-contouring of vast acerages in the slavish pursuit of links-like design on alien inland terrain will provide unaswerable ammunition for the ecological lobby...No matter what less inspired practioners may have done to his major layouts subsequently, each one remains a fascinating example of how eighteen could be interwoven with that particular piece of land."

The man was a genius...CB who?  


Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:5 Architects and 5 Courses to represent 150 years of GCA
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2004, 02:17:35 PM »
Adam,

What set NGLA apart from the courses that preceeded it?

1-Macdonald realized that any parcel of land was not good enough, and thus spent years searching for the ideal site (sandy loam, undulation & near the sea). He recognized that securing the proper land was half the battle.

That doesn't make him a good architect.  Most architects that were worth anything already knew that, CB was just rich enough to wait around

2-NGLA could boast of 18 great holes, a course without a weak link. This was part of the reason Macdonald desired to create his "transatlantic translations". He admired the courses of Great Britain but was dismayed that they always contained a few weak or mediocre holes. Why? The basis of the hole designs for NGLA came from these great holes abroad, and the strategies of said holes were built in whole or in part at NGLA.

Has that become a problem with modern design that perfection is seeked way, way too often and sometimes nature should just be left to create a 'rub of the green'

3-NGLA did not define the line of play! Golf became more of a chess match, with players plotting their way around the course - assessing the numerous risk/reward challenges of each hole.

I will agree with that one, but sorry The Old Course already beat CB to that one


4-Macdonald experimented with new strains of grass in order to obtain better turf conditions & built a turf nursery for such experimentation. He built the greens at NGLA in layers of soil, seaweed & sand to foster better putting surfaces, and installed irrigation (greens only) for the same purpose.

One of the only reasons he studied grasses is because the greens at NGLA failed and he was in DEEP shit and had to study.  According to Bahto's quote in his book Robert White had said that greens at the end of the first year looked like cabbage patches

5-When nature could not provide the ideal terrain, Macdonald improved the site by hauling in huge quantities of fill to achieve the desired design.

That can be a good thing and a bad thing.  Colt was also not scared to move earth but only when needed  

6-Macdonald sought the expert advice of many people to better accomplish his goals. Design - Walter Travis, Devereux Emmet, H.J. Whigham; Engineering - Seth Raynor; Agronomy - C.V. Piper of U.S.D.A.

So did Colt

7-Finally, cost in terms of time. Macdonald spent nearly ten years (8yrs planning/design - 2yrs construction) to complete NGLA. This gave him the time to get the details right, or to correct problems that became evident during construction.


That does not make you a good architect that just means you are rich enough to buy your own piece of land and wait...and he still got the greens wrong

Cornish & Whitten write "It would be accurate to say that Charles Blair Macdonald and The National Golf Links of America revolutionized golf course architecture".

They are allowed their opinions, I agree that he did to some degree but what affect did it have on architects outside of amercia?  He was a rich man that could play about with his site as much as he wanted...can you compare that to the genius of Colt that created masterpieces all over the world on all different types of land

TK

We missed each other in cyberspace there.  I hope you don't take offence at the way I answer the post but it is just a quick way of answering.

Colt has influenced me more than any other architect.  If you look at Coore and Crenshaws design I see a hell of a lot of Colt in them.  Kyle Phillips adores Colt's work.

Cheers,

Brian
« Last Edit: December 10, 2004, 02:23:21 PM by Brian Phillips »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Adam_F_Collins

Re:5 Architects and 5 Courses to represent 150 years of GCA
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2004, 05:40:19 PM »
1850-1880 - the birth of organized golf clubs
St. Andrews
1880-1904 the birth of the architect
Sunningdale by Willie Park Jr.
1904-1939 - between the wars - the golden age
THe National Golf Links of America, Charles Blair MacDonald
1940-1970 - modernization
The Dunes Golf and Beach Club by Robert Trent Jones
1970-2000 - the second golden age
The Vintage Club by Tom Fazio

I looked at this excercise as not what do I like the most, but what had the most influence in it's time. I broke the 5 periods up to the logical times that seemed to represent fundimental changes in thinking


Ian, thanks for this. This approach is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for (Although I'm not sure that I knew until you showed me). How do you break it into 5 periods, and apply an architect and a course who best captures the essence of what was happening during the period in terms of their own contributions?

It is definitely a difficult thing to do, particularly with so many, well-loved architects to choose from.

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:5 Architects and 5 Courses to represent 150 years of GCA
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2004, 06:32:10 PM »
Brian,

No offense taken. I do not really disagree with you, and given your much greater knowledge on the life & work of Colt, I'll freely admit he did more for the game architecturally than C.B. Macdonald - who was a little formulaic. I guess the way that I interpreted Adam's original post was, which course best epitomized each era. I think NGLA punctuated what had begun at courses such as Myopia Hunt and Garden City in North America, and from what you state, Rye & Sunningdale in Europe. Looking more closely at the title of this thread, perhaps Colt is the architect and NGLA is the golf course of the strategic school of golf architecture (they need not be one in the same).

I was not trying to argue that spending lots of money & time on NGLA, and searching endlessly for an ideal site made C.B. Macdonald a good architect. I was trying to show further elements that make NGLA stand out from what had preceeded it - perhaps that should have been omitted because it is not entirely architecturally related. I do not agree that seeking to produce 18 great holes has been problematic for the world of golf architecture. The fact that nobody achieves this lofty goal is more of a problem.

Cheers,
TK

Adam_F_Collins

Re:5 Architects and 5 Courses to represent 150 years of GCA
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2004, 09:08:35 AM »
Anyone else want to take a shot at this? Does Ian have it nailed?

Mark Brown

Re:5 Architects and 5 Courses to represent 150 years of GCA
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2004, 06:56:38 PM »
Old Tom
Ross
Mackenzie
Dye
Crenshaw/Coore or Doak

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