[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Without having the scorecard infront of me, the first at Merion is one of that courses shorter holes, but clearly beyond the 300 yard limit.
Agreat short..ish starting hole none the less.

[THuckaby2]

Doug:  I am right with you re NB#1.  It would take a huge long fade over the right side of the hill and then a very lucky bounce... that's why it would be so cool to see done!

As for TOC #1, well... get it down wind, get a lucky hop, I can see that.  Shots bounce over the burn all the time.  But that would indeed also be one huge hit combined with a LOT of luck and your question WHY is the most important one.  My guess is when it happens, it does my mistake.  Shoot even weakstick me hit 3wood off that tee, just to make sure and not get too close to the swilcan.

TH

[Doug Siebert]

Tom,

I'm not sure it is desireable to have a foursome of strong players all have to wait for the green to clear on a reasonable "go for it" situation.  If you take for example TOC's first or Troon's first, a strong and reasonably accurate player might take driver more in an effort to get close for a little flip wedge and thus would have to wait for the group ahead to get on the green.  That will provide pretty good spacing, and both holes are still gentle enough to be a good start for the higher 'caps as you suggest.

Having a hole that's driveable by too high a percentage of golfers as the starting hole is going to force 15 minute gaps between starting times.  That's great, unless the course sells tee times at ten minute intervals  If they are smart enough to do 15 minute intervals, you don't need a driveable hole to enforce the issue architecturally.

[THuckaby2]

Tom,

I'm not sure it is desireable to have a foursome of strong players all have to wait for the green to clear on a reasonable "go for it" situation.  If you take for example TOC's first or Troon's first, a strong and reasonably accurate player might take driver more in an effort to get close for a little flip wedge and thus would have to wait for the group ahead to get on the green.  That will provide pretty good spacing, and both holes are still gentle enough to be a good start for the higher 'caps as you suggest.

Having a hole that's driveable by too high a percentage of golfers as the starting hole is going to force 15 minute gaps between starting times.  That's great, unless the course sells tee times at ten minute intervals  If they are smart enough to do 15 minute intervals, you don't need a driveable hole to enforce the issue architecturally.

Doug:  I guess you're right.  Maybe the bad does outweigh the good here.  At first thought, it seemed to me that creation of that gap would be a good thing.. but who is gonna be altruistic enough to do 15 minute intervals?  Not may courses around here, that's for sure.

TH

[Mike Benham]

Prestwick Golf Club - Railway ...

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

With speed of play in mind, the first at Merion is a model in routing.
Not driveable, yet not too troublesome in terms of hazards, it allows for a nice fast start.
The clever part, is that it allows the group in front plenty of time to cross the street and tee off on the second, a par five.

It always apperas to work out that you are never waiting on the second, and as we know par fives are usually the site of waiting.

[THuckaby2]

Mike - pictures do speak many words.  Does ANYONE ever try to drive that green?

TH

[Brian_Gracely]

Mike,

I'd be really interested to know if anyone has ever driven the green on #1 at Prestwick.  And if so, could they repeat the feat after a couple of Kummels?

And that picture must have been taken from the rooftop, because I don't ever recall being able to see the green surface from the tee-box.

man I love that place....

[Doug Siebert]

So what's the best play if you try to drive the green on Prestwick's first with a pin on the left?  I'm thinking banking it off the wall to get around the bunker...

[mark chalfant]

Two by Donald Ross:
Rogell  in Detroit (320y), at about  250 of the tee there is a
deep valley where your ball can disappear.The first at Brae Burn, a fine layout is 310yd to a lovely greensite.The second
340yds  up a steep hill is even better !

[Doug Siebert]

Tom,

I'll bet if anyone tries driving that green, that unless they succeed, their caddie will quit and have a pint while waiting for someone more reasonable to loop for.  Otherwise he'll spend his entire day deep in the tall stuff looking for his player's ball!

[ForkaB]

A few others that come to mind:

Prestwick
Portsalon
Western Gailes
Woods Hole
Ladybank
Painswick
Dornoch (Struie)
Lossiemouth (Old)
Eden

My guess is that all of these are driveable today by the longer hitters.

Vis a vis Brora, that 1st is certainly drivable, as even I have done it.  You can't miss right, however, and the risk/reward doesn't really compute unless you have a breeze blowing off your left shoulder (so you can hit a high fade on the wind).

Dornoch is also reachable these days from the back (330).  However, due to the big bunker at 280 or so mid/left fairway, you need to hit a cut (or carry it 290+).  These days in major competitions they wait for the green to clear (unless you have a big wind in your face), which is fine and dandy, as 9-10 minutes (the tee time intervals) is about right to finish that hole, and by slowing things down on the 1st, you mitigate the usual bottleneck on the difficult 170-yard 2nd.

[THuckaby2]

Doug:  I'd say you have Prestwick #1 summed up PERFECTLY.

 

[Mike Benham]

So what's the best play if you try to drive the green on Prestwick's first with a pin on the left?  I'm thinking banking it off the wall to get around the bunker...

On another thread, it morph'd into a discussion of table top hockey games, and to go for the green at Prestwick's first you might need to have experienced the game called "carroms" ...  

http://www.billiboard.com/carrom-catalogue/buy-carrom-board.html

[Brent Hutto]

Dornoch is also reachable these days from the back (330).  However, due to the big bunker at 280 or so mid/left fairway, you need to hit a cut (or carry it 290+).  These days in major competitions they wait for the green to clear (unless you have a big wind in your face), which is fine and dandy, as 9-10 minutes (the tee time intervals) is about right to finish that hole, and by slowing things down on the 1st, you mitigate the usual bottleneck on the difficult 170-yard 2nd.

So maybe there's a good point of routing. If you're going to have a tough one-shot second hole that causes backups, maybe a 300-yard opener serves as a way for the player to amuse himself instead of just standing around getting stiff and annoyed on the second tee.

[Tom Renli]

An additional modern course is Desert Highlands.  This is the site of the first Skins Game in the mid 80s, Nicklaus design.  The first is short depending on the tees you are playing.  Dramatic drop in evelation and view of the Valley.

[Bob_Huntley]

Sean,

Did the ball bounce over the burn.

1st Hole..... Royal Sydney.

[Tony Petersen]

Riverdale Dunes in Brighton, CO (Dye/Doak) has a fun, driveable par 4 starting hole. The green is buried in a small hollow, which you can't see from the tee. But, as a lefty, slide the hips and kill a fade to the front of the green!

Fun opening hole on a GRAND public tract!

[Jay Cox]

Commonwealth in Australia still has a fairly short opener; several friends who've played down there a bunch say it was a better hole when it was even shorter and driveable. Tom Doak makes a similar point in the Confidential Guide.  Restored, I would nominate it as the standard for very short opening Par 4s.

[Jim_Coleman]

   #1 at Teeth of the Dog.  I got it to 20 yards (prevailing downwind) last week   -   made 5.

[Matthew Delahunty]

Jay,

The old first at Commonwealth was around 260 yards and a first class hole. The redesigned hole is around 330 yards and probable just driveable for the super long hitters.

Other Australian courses with driveable first holes are Victoria and Royal Sydney.

The best short par 4 opener in Australia is Royal Melbourne East at 303m (330yds).

The current configuration of the composite course at Royal Melbourne has a driveable opening hole (3rd on the West course) - well, driveable for the likes of Els and co.

[Dan_Callahan]

Blackstone National, a Rees Jones course, has a reachable opening hole. It measures 320 from the white tees, 330 from the blues, and 360 from the tips, but that is downhill and around a dogleg. Cutting the corner takes at least 30–40 yards off the shot. The image below does not accurately portray the elevation change down to the hole, nor does it show how sharply the fairway bends to the left. (By the way, I don't know where they are getting the 390 that is on the photo—no way the tees go back that far.) A tee shot directly over the left bunkers will hit the downslope and kick onto the green. Of course, a 4-iron off the tee leaves a little sand wedge and an easy way to get into the round. With a par 5 up next, I am always reluctant to destroy my round on the very first hole. How's that for a positive frame of mind?

[Doug Siebert]

Sean,

Your friend FLEW the burn?  Holy crap, that's what, 325 yards?  I guess I know one guy who could do it, but how in the world did your friend hold the green?  Next someone will tell me about some guy driving the Road Hole

[Mike Nuzzo]

Baxter had a chance to play the newly opened first at Beaumont C. C. this week.  296 yds.  If the rain ever stops, I'll get there too....

[michael j fay]

The Brae Burn Country Club in Newton, MA 1919 US Open, 1927 US Amaeur) starts with three consecutive short par four holes
The fist is 310 over a stream directly in front of the green. #2 is an uphill, 296 yard beauty that can be played with any club from 7-iron to driver off the tee. The green is a well bunkered two teired number that can cause havoc. # 3 is about 340, slighly uphill to an elevated green that is about 20 yards from the crest of the hill which deceives the player nearly every time. It is a green that is extremely contoured and difficult to chip to from the front.
If you walk off the third green even par, you have probably birdied one of the holes.

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