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Brent Hutto

Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« on: December 06, 2004, 09:52:55 AM »
Are there any good courses with a short Par 4 as the opening hole? Say anything from 250-300 yards from the regular men's or member's tees.

As with a Par 3 or short Par 5 opener I guess it would be considered a cause of first-tee congestion. On the other hand, if you wait and tee off after the group ahead of you leaves the green you ought to have clear sailing from that point on (I always hate the Par 4 opener followed by a tough Par 3 second hole for instance).

I think it's an interesting concept as long as the hole is a genuine risk-reward proposition and not just an easy par type of thing. Different people have different frames of mind on the first tee shot of the day. Some people like to play aggressively from the get-go and try to score well while they're fresh and prepared while others prefer to play very conservatively for a couple of holes until they get into a good rhythm for day. The short, risk-reward Par 4 makes this a more explicit decision than most.
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2004, 09:53:55 AM »
Fenway and Philadelphia Country Club (not originally routed that way by Flynn) come to mind, although the latter is about 330.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2004, 09:55:00 AM by Mike_Cirba »
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THuckaby2

Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2004, 09:55:44 AM »
Mike, Mike, Mike.  You disappoint me.  Wouldn't the poster course for this be THE NATIONAL GOLF LINKS OF AMERICA?

You lose one point for this.  But that's ok, you're up about 335 points in my book as it is.

 ;D
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2004, 09:57:09 AM »
Tom, Tom, Tom...

Good point!  ;D

You're not the only one who tells me I'm slipping.

Although, it's only fair to point out that MacDonald didn't originally route that one as the first hole, either.
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Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2004, 10:00:48 AM »
Myopia Hunt Club has a unique uphill short par 4 opener.  I think it's around 285 on the card but is quite a bit uphill and you can not see the green from the tee.  

Here is a picture from behind the green:

« Last Edit: December 06, 2004, 10:01:22 AM by Jimmy Muratt »
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THuckaby2

Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2004, 10:01:57 AM »
OK, I can live with that.  You get your point back.  ;D

It's funny though the second I read the title of Brent's topic, I thought NGLA.  And I suck at these things.

In fact I can't think of any other good short par 4 openers, at least not where driving the green is a viable option... Prestwick #1 is pretty short, but man anyone who takes a crack at that green is insane... it is rather tight.  And I just looked at its's 346.  So never mind there....

TH
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2004, 10:06:10 AM »
How about North Berwick?
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Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2004, 10:08:56 AM »
Bald Peak Colony Club

310 straight downhill, but somewhat tight and hazardous.

The kid we played with, who was mashing all day including pin-high at the downhill 330 yard 13th, opted for the seven iron, as did I.

I may go for it next year if I have not been blackballed.

I think that a drivable green on the first shot of the day is a great way to start the round and a good way to pace the groups - i.e. wait until the green is clear.

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Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2004, 10:12:34 AM »
royal dornoch has a great first hole - rich is the expert, but it is eminently driveable by longer hitters. maybe 310 yards? i think the GCA dornoch expert reckons it the best birdie opportunity on the course, but par is always a good score on that hole. it is a great example of risk-reward - as often as not when you play it safe you still make a mess, and then curse your lack of courage.
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Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2004, 10:13:24 AM »
Cherry Hills. Didn't Palmer drive the green during his 1960 charge?
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Mr Hurricane

Sean Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2004, 10:16:10 AM »
The closest to the 300 yds I came up with were

Royal Dornoch 331yds from the blue.  300 from the yellow.  

Brora 297yds White 280 yellow.  Dogleg right.  Would be tough to drive with a hill guarding the dogleg and a gully in front of the green.  However I only had a PW in for my second so the green may be an option for the big hitter.

Crail 321yds.  Maybe the most likely.  Severely downhill.  Bunker front right makes the right half of the l shaped green tough but the left half would be accessible.

Best I can do..

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Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2004, 10:17:18 AM »
Pacific Dunes popped into my mind.
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jeffmingay.com

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2004, 10:18:01 AM »
Portland Country Club - 290 down the hill - beautiful vistas of Casco Bay.

Bunkers in front make this a real challenge for those who would drive the green.
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Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2004, 10:18:55 AM »
Brent,
Both of the courses that will host the GCA Ryder Cup next year have opening holes in that range. Deal's might be a little longer than 300 yards; the green is fronted by a small stream - a setup that reminds me of the 1st at TOC. Littlestone's is similar - wide, flat fairway, large green fronted by a pair of bunkers that replaced a drainage stream some years ago.

I think they are terrific holes for starters. Littlestone's rock-hard fairway is tilted slightly left to right and when the prevailing wind (also l to r, favoring) is up, the tee shot has to be controlled precisely.


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Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2004, 10:19:14 AM »
Michael's point of how a short par 4 opener spaces the groups out is a good one.  Murphy Creek GC in Denver has a short/drivable 320yd+ opening hole, and waiting for the group to clear the green gives a nice cushion between groups to start out the round.

Cheers,
Brad Swanson
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THuckaby2

Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2004, 10:24:45 AM »
Of ones I've played, mentioned already:

N. Berwick really isn't driveable - there's a huge hill in the way.

Pacific Dunes is driveable only with cannon.   ;)

Dornoch comes closer.. I can see driving that from the yellow tees, particularly down-wind... and it is worth trying...

TH
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Eamon Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2004, 10:42:08 AM »
The opener at Panmure (near Carnoustie, it was Hogan's practice ground before the '53 Open) is only 290 yards and quite reachable off the tee. Not that I reached it, mind you, but in theory it's there for the taking.

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bstark

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2004, 10:48:09 AM »
 How bout Westhampton's little teaser of a par 4 starter that always gets me thinking, what with OB right and uneven lies left. Also Garden City's 1st hole is a ticklish 300 yarder.
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Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2004, 10:53:12 AM »
What about #1 at Troon?  Since it usually plays with the wind, and is of course fast and firm, it is still doable at 360 or so yards.  Though getting past all the bunkers around the green is surely blind luck!
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THuckaby2

Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2004, 10:56:32 AM »
Doug, when I played Troon, our tee was 348... and it was very firm and fast, and it was down wind... but I sure didn't look at that as remotely close to being driveable.  That being said, I guess the Matt Wards/Dave Schmidts of the world might look at it that way.  I just don't think many people look at that hole and think about driving the green as a viable option.  Really it's just hit something out there and miss the bunkers, as far down as you choose to go... and there's a couple on the left at about 240 off the this tee, a couple on the right at about 260... blasting over I guess might be a thought, but not for me that's for sure!
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Brian_Gracely

Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2004, 11:00:07 AM »
Anybody got a modern example other than Pacific Dunes?  

A short opener, while an interesting set of variety, is quirk and quirk is essentially (and unfortunately) dead in modern golf :(
« Last Edit: December 06, 2004, 11:05:31 AM by Brian_Gracely »
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THuckaby2

Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2004, 11:04:20 AM »
Well sure Sean, some of these holes CAN be driven, by Tiger Woods-types downwind, etc.  One certainly could get a massive hit over the hill on #1 North Berwick, for example, it one was that strong AND that foolish enough to take that early risk.   ;)

I'm thinking what are more valuable here are holes where it can be done not as a once in a life-time thing, but as a strong shot by a strong player as part of a very viable choice.  There haven't been many listed yet where that is the case... It might be that there just plain aren't that many around.  Then the question becomes why not?  Because it would seem to work well for spacing for the stronger players, and for the lesser players it then becomes the gentle start that seems so desirable...

TH

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Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2004, 11:06:14 AM »
Blue Heron Pines-West Course No. 1 is drive-able

Crooked Stick No. 1 is very short, as are most of Dye's opening holes from the 1960s-1970s.
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THuckaby2

Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2004, 11:24:47 AM »
Sean:  

Haven't been to Carne but I am right with you on Brora anyway.  And man I would love to witness #1 NB driven... oh I know it can be done, as you say... but boy that must be fun to see.  ;D

It's interesting to me how few of these there are, particularly on the modern side... because they do make such sense...

Strange.

TH
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Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short Par 4 Opening Holes
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2004, 11:36:33 AM »
I'd think the problem at North Berwick's 1st would not be the hill so much as the fact the green is sort of hanging out on that cliff.  Definitely need a nice fade off the tee!

How in the heck was TOC's first driven?  And why?  I have a hard time believing there's anyone in the world who is good enough to plan exactly where to carry their drive such that it clears the burn on the hop!  Sounds like blind luck to me.  Even without the burn, I'd never hit driver on TOC's first.  I'd be too worried about the lifelong ban that might result from an opening push taking out the 85 year old mother of a Link Trust member on the Himalayas! ;)
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