[Steve_ Shaffer]

Sean

Re Tucson

Don't miss Gallery North.I've not played Stone Canyon- see Matt Ward's comments. Other courses of note besides the usual suspects of Ventana Mountain, AZ National,formerly Raven at Sabino Springs,StarrPass and La Paloma are:

1.Recently renovated by Ken Kavanuagh El Rio muni in Tucson.
2.Newly opened Preserve at Saddlebrooke by Bailey
3. Canoa Ranch in Green Valley area by Schmidt-Curley
4.Recently renovated Tubac Golf Resort in Tubac
5. Rio Rico by RTJ south of Green Valley

[Tom Renli]

Matt:

DM Chirichua and Silver Leaf are basically interchangeable with 7 through 10.  I like Chirichua the best of the DM courses.  The day I played Silver Leaf it was hot, windy, the fairways were in poor shape and I shot a million, so my opinion would probably be higher given different circumstances.

The thing that stands out about Quinterro to me is the eveluation drop on the par 3s and the greens - pure and well contoured.  Whisper Rock from your list is the one that surprises me the most, my opinion and others that I have talked to are nuetral at best, primarily because it is too tight.

Steve:

I believe GCS went from $150k per person last year to $150k per family this year.  I believe the monthly will be in excess of $1k once the club house is complete.

Sean:

I think Steve covered it well.  I would play Gallery and try El Rio or Randolph South, maybe Tucson CC.

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

Steve,

Sorry to go OTon you but thanks for the thoughts on Tucson. I have played a few of the one's you mentioned and Heritage Highlands as well. I will be nice to try and get on some of you suggestion.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

None of the Troon courses is remotely in the same league as Chirichua and Outlaw at Desert Mountain. How you figure in leaving Whisper Rock out of the mix is also baffling. Whisper Rock has sufficient room for most players off the tee. I grant it's not as wide as Kansas but if that's the type of person playing then nearly all desert golf is out of the equation.

For those on the Tucson trail ...

I would offer del Lago -- a Ken Kavanaugh design south of town that's very inexpensive and a nice effort worth a play.

I have to say that anyone venturing to the Gallery should play the original 18 -- the new 18 is simply low level eye-candy and far from the intricacies of big brother.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

I agree with you about Del Lago in Vail. I played there after it opened and my impression was that if it were in Scottsdale it would be a $150 course. Of course, there weren't any houses there then. Now it's a different story.

Steve

[Bill_McBride]

Re: Tucson.  I went there in January 2004 with my wife and another couple and we played three rounds in fairly chilly weather.

Tucson CC was pretty classic Billy Bell, enjoyable with good greenside bunkering, not much fairway bunkering of high interest, but overall an okay experience.  Maybe a 4+ or 5- Doak scale.

Next day we drove down to Rio Rico, very chilly, pretty prototypical RTJ with major aircraft carrier tees, medium sized flattish greens, not anything exceptional.  4+ or 5-.

Randolph Park North, where the LPGA plays.  Another Billy Bell, pretty much the same as TCC but a lot more play and conditioning not as good, plus a potentially catastrophic finishing hole which is a long par 4, very narrow landing area across a concrete pond.  

In retrospect we should have sprung for the big bucks and played Ventana Canyon or some of the others.  Tucson routine is not really good.

If you're looking for a good B&B, try the Adobe Rose Inn, very nice in a good location.

[Matt_Ward]

What amazes me about the assessment of area golf in the Scottsdale area is how the recent Nicklaus efforts at Desert Mountain get lost in the sauce. I see Chirichua and Outlaw as being among the special elite layouts you can play in the Valley of the Sun.

Much is said about Talking Stick / North but I would put Outlaw without question against it and view it as being a better overall test / design. Just have to wonder if the name Nicklaus means less when compared to other folks?

No doubt the likes of Desert Forest deserves plenty of praise but I would just as quickly include the likes of Whisper Rock and Chapparal Pines in nearby Payson as being some of the finest golf you can play in the state. I like the Canyon Course at Forest Highlands but I would rate Chapparal Pines a slight edge ahead of it. The Rim -- the layout next door to CP is merely "eye-candy" golf lacking the details and demands you find with the Graham / Panks design next store IMHO.

It's too bad that the original Geronimo course could not be kept -- I'll always remember the longpar-3 13th and the dynamic short par-4 14th with its unique green -- RIP.
I always loved the course even though it does max out the demand meter in a big time way -- like Tom Doak said in his "Confidential Guide" there are few courses that can beat up for "pure ammo needed."

[Tony Petersen]

  I would have to agree with Matt regarding The Desert Mountain Club. Granted, I have the pleasure of working there, but, nonetheless, I've played pretty much all of the "baller" clubs in Scottsdale, PHX, etc. and it just doesn't get any better than Outlaw and Chiricahua. I would even include Geronimo, with one of the most breathtaking 1st shots in the game. I never played Geronimo before the redesign by Lyle, and I understand that it was even better, but it's still a STRONG course that I would include in the mix.

Another course more in the valley that I've played MANY times and really enjoy is Moon Valley CC. Cupp did the redesign in 1999 and the greens are monstrous!!! Average around 12,000 sq. ft, with huge swales and hollows. The course is fairly flat, 7200 from the tips with a great set of finishing holes... #15 - 240 yd par 3; #16 - 490 yd par 4; #17- 400 yd par 4 tight dogleg right with water left; and #18 - 450 yd par 4 with THE craziest green that I have yet too see in AZ... WAY more play than anything that you will find at Apache Stronghold or GC at Scottsdale... If you get the chance, I guarantee that you will enjoy yourself

[Dan_Belden]

Matt:  I would like to know what you think stands out for design features at Chirichua, as well as at Whisper Rock.  I enjoyed Chirichua,felt that there was some good architecture out there, but fail to see anything special at Whisper Rock.  

   One reason we don't see anyone building another Desert Forest is no-one would play it.  Norman was originaly going to do something like this at what is now Mirabel, and got killed.  Nobody in the right mind would build a golf course this narrow, in this day and age.  I good analogy would be that no-one builds greens with a 4% slope anymore, nobody builds a course in Arizona with 20yard wide fairways.  
  One course that is really growing on me here in Phoenix, is Troon Country Club.  They have one of the most interesting set of greens I have seen up here.  And I still would put up Desert Higlands against anything Jack did at Desert Mountain.  The angles at DH are just superb, and the course is a blast to play.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Dan, I haven't been to Desert Forest yet, but love that atmosphere and nature of Scottsdale and even Paradise Valley. Great effort it seems, has occured to keep much of the blend in with nature architecture of many of the houses and buildings.  That being, while looking at Brad's book, I'm amazed at how playable Desert Forest really does seem, even with its narrowness. With Norman's "eco" designs, (i.e. Mirabel and PGA West) I don't get that feeling. I guess it because there is a difference between moving a lot of earth which they do for the Norman courses compared to what Red Lawrence didn't move.

Do you think this could be a factor?

[Matt_Ward]

Dan said, "Matt:  I would like to know what you think stands out for design features at Chirichua, as well as at Whisper Rock.  I enjoyed Chirichua,felt that there was some good architecture out there, but fail to see anything special at Whisper Rock.

Dan -- let me start by saying that the variety of holes, the routing and the general overall use of the property are stellar. Look at the first three holes -- the 1st at Chirichua is a long par-4 that plays downhill. The green runs away slightly and you have to play particular attention on the tee as many people usually bail towards the left and leave them much longer second shots.

The 2nd at Chirichua is as good a short part-4 as one can play in all of the Valley -- it blows away the 1st at Desert Highlands and I really like that hole.

You then get a superb par-5 at 650 yards from the tips. The hole can be reached in two by the super long but you have to monkey around with the creek that cuts into the drive zone. The green is well protected by a fronting creek.

I don't have all the time right now to discuss in total detail but will later the merits of Whisper Rock and the remaining aspects of Chirichua.

I'll just say this again -- Jack Nicklaus has been "branded" for a certain type of design. Unfortunately, the raters need to update their copy on what team Nicklaus is doing NOW -- not from 15-20 years ago.

Outlaw is grossly undervalued -- apply one of the more favored son architects that you read constantly about hereo on GCA and the result would be far different. I'll say this again -- Outlaw is beyond the qualities one finds at Talking Stick / North. I enjoyed TS / North but Outlaw is the real deal to understand today's modern desert golf without all the distractions.

I'll comment on the rest of your statement (see below) when time permits later.  

"One reason we don't see anyone building another Desert Forest is no-one would play it.  Norman was originaly going to do something like this at what is now Mirabel, and got killed.  Nobody in the right mind would build a golf course this narrow, in this day and age.  I good analogy would be that no-one builds greens with a 4% slope anymore, nobody builds a course in Arizona with 20yard wide fairways.  
 One course that is really growing on me here in Phoenix, is Troon Country Club.  They have one of the most interesting set of greens I have seen up here.  And I still would put up Desert Higlands against anything Jack did at Desert Mountain.  The angles at DH are just superb, and the course is a blast to play."  

[Dan_Belden]

Tommy;  
  I think that you raise a good point about Norman's design, and while I haven't or didn't see the plans for what he was going to do at Mirabel, I still think that it would be tough to build a course like Desert Forest in this day and age.  
  For guys like you and me, DF is alot of fun to play, and it is playable, and it is superb architecture, but as a winter course for your average 20 handicap, it doesn't work, and they don't seem to enjoy it. .It seems to me that alot of people want to play there, but not everyday.  As an everyday course for a high handicapper, you better be getting your balls free.
  Matt, I too like Chirichua, but I don't really care much about Whisper Rock.  I just don't think there is very much good stuff out there.  
  I have not yet played Outlaw, but from what I have seen of it, and from what I have read of it, I am sure that I would like it.  My favorite course out there was and is Geronimo, event though the changed the  back nine some.  
  As for Desert Forest, it really is a neat place and a fun course.  Tommy, do you think it was designed with match play in mind, or did Red Lawrence really not care one way or the other?  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Dan,
With the lack of width, yet also lack of fairway bunkering, I would say for the time and age, yes. But once again, I haven't seen the course in person. I'm shooting to be there in February though. Maybe a match to end all matches?

TE was the one who told me that the Norman course that hadn't even opened was going to get torn-up for a Fazio. What a precidence it has set!

[Tony Petersen]

  Hey, if any of you GCA'ers are planning on being in AZ this winter, and you might have room for an extra, I would love to meet you guys. I'm hoping to make it to CA for the KP, but it would be fun to tee it up and meet some of you guys beforehand. I might also be able to arrange a round at DM, though it all depends on day and time. Needless to say, come Feb. DM is a busy place, but an afternnoon T Time after 2 pm is always possible. Maybe DF in the morning, DM in the afternoon... Not a bad day Just drop me line here and I will touch base.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

I can appreciate your appreciation of Geronimo -- it was among my personal 50 best courses in the USA until Lyle Anderson allowed the 13th and 14th holes to be "modified." A true pity because the back tee on ther 13th simply made the hole a real bear. The original short par-4 14th was light years beyond what you see today -- the Nicklaus bowl-type green was completely original and always fun to play.

Let me mention a few other items -- one of which deals with the inability of raters from the key publications to stay as current as possible. Too many people see Nicklaus as the guy who designed layouts from years back -- not the person in the last 5-7 years who has come forward with a range of superlative efforts -- Chirichua is one of them as it opened, I believe, in March 1999.

My first round there was extremely rewarding. I've mentioned the first three holes -- the 2nd is simply a grand short par-4 that rarely, if ever, gets any mention.

The only real weak hole on the front is the pedestrian par-3 8th at 159 yards. It's a good hole but nothing grand. The two finest par-4's on the course come with the 10th and 11th at 485 and 472 yards respectively. I mean how cool is the 10th!

You have to drive the ball on one side of a fairway and then fly an approach across a divide to a green neatly banked against the hillside. Definitely one of the finest holes I have played from Nicklaus.

The bulk of the back nine weaves effortlessly among the desert landscape and frankly I see Chirichua taking the best highlights of Renegade and Geronimo and putting together for a supreme package. The uphill par-5 17th at 519 yards is well done as is the delicious closing hole at 458 yards.

How Chicirhua is not rated among the best 100 courses in the USA boggles my mind. There's enough width but the sheer penality like you find at other desert courses is lessened.

No doubt Desert Highlands is still a fine layout but team Nicklaus has gone beyond that with Chirichua and Outlaw.

Dan -- on Whisper Rock I believe you have some of the best holes without having a site that simply overwhelms the senses. Whisper Rock doesn't have the scale and awesome qualities of the land on which you find Chirichua and Outlaw at Desert Mountain.

Phil Mickelson and Gary Stephenson succeeded big time because they wanted the golf -- not the land -- to be the big time reason why you hustle to play Whisper Rock. I salute the tandem because Whisper Rock is one of the more daunting courses to get "comfortable" over the tee shot. The holes bend just slightly in critical areas and you must be supremely confident in your ability to handle what's thrown at you.

I also believe the totality of the greens and the way pins can be placed put a huge premium on your ability to play a range of short pitches, chips and putts.

Whisper Rock, for me, is the modern equivalent of Desert Forest. It is a layout that is vastly underrated and IMHO among the 4-5 best in all of Arizona.

[Matt_Ward]

Mea culpa on my part for mis-identifying the par-5 9th and par-4 10th at Outlaw at Desert Mountain.

I still believe the two uphill par-5's -- the 9th and 16th are rather similar type holes and I believe you can make a strong case that although the short par-4 10th is devilish because of the green -- it is that same green that can be nearly to hold because of the way the site is angled and the general firmness of the surface.

I've found instances of people playing waaaaaaay to the right -- even near the 11th hole to get a better angle into the target. It's an absolutely severe hole -- the only way to play it is either aim far right or take driver and hope to reach the frontal bunker for a blast shot out of the sand.

[Andy Troeger]

Of all the AZ threads I've seen on GCA this one might give more detail into some of the big name courses than most. Just figured I'd bring it back...

[Ryan Farrow]

I am just suprised there is no talk of Papago.

[Mike Mosely]

Hey how come no one mentioned we-ko-pa or the boulders?  wha do people think of the saquaro course?  The cholla?  The south at the boulders?

[Andy Troeger]

One of the things I was hoping by bringing this thread back would be including some of the newer courses that have opened in the last few years and comparing them to the ones mentioned in the thread. Saguaro, Vista Verde, and Papago have all been mentioned in great detail on other threads (probably more recently than the courses detailed on this one) so maybe this will bring them together.

I've not played most of the private courses detailed in this thread. I have played Saguaro and think its very good and would be my favorite course in the valley portion of AZ.

[Ryan Farrow]

Andy have you played Talking Stick North and if you have what puts the Saguaro course ahead for you.

[Andy Troeger]

Ryan,
I've played Talking Stick North once and Saguaro twice. I don't really think the courses are all that close with a lot of that being due to the more interesting terrain at Saguaro plus the interesting variety of holes including the short par fours. TSN has some very good holes that have been well documented with #12 probably being the most original, but the later part of the front nine and the last six holes on the back nine got rather redundant and repetitive for me comparatively. Saguaro is pretty solid all the way through and has the terrain that TSN lacks which helps create interest tee to green.

I would certainly recommend Saguaro as a place worth going out of the way to see. Also, I've not played Talking Stick South to make any comparison there.

[Forrest Richardson]

Papago should be on the list as the bones are still there despite a lack of care and preservation. Papago, at the moment, is an entire discussion due to an interesting selection process for a restoration development partner.

Tommy N. has left his fingerprints on the Biltmopre Adobe, especially "Do or Die" the 17th, which he assisted in defining.

Ventana Canyon's Mountain Course is one of my favorite in all of Arizona. Along with The Rim Club (Payson) and Troon CC (Scottsdale.)

WeKoPa Saguaro, as I have said here before, is great for purists...but I feel C&C left some of there creativity somewhere...not on the course. It is a really good course. I like it. But...

Between Phoenix & Tucson (Eloy) I designed Grande Valley (1990) — a long time ago. I have always felt it deserves more recognition, especially for the interesting greens. No one knows about it, except for some truckers and locals.

I recently played Club West for the first time. While Ken Kavanaugh had difficulty with the owner, I was impressed with this development-chocked course for its interest. Club West has always looked interesting from the air (it is under the 4,000 ft. approach path), but I never got to it (it is maybe 15 years old by now.)

Oak Creek CC is among the best RTJ, Sr. courses apart from California and Ireland. It is also the most scenic.

David Druzisky's Laughlin Ranch in Laughlin is a must if you are going to Vegas from Phoenix. An interesting layout in the middle of nowhere...yet a growing area (before the mortgage shake-up.)

[Mark Smolens]

Because I have a place to stay (Mom's), I'm in Scottsdale once a month in the winter.  I get the Troon pass because I love Troon North, but can't stomach paying $275 to play golf.  Wondering if anyone out there has any thoughts on the re-routing of the two courses at Troon North?

I love TS North, but usually only play the South when my Mom's joining us.  She has trouble getting in and out of the bunkers on the North (physically climbing in and out, bad knees and 74 years).  The South is much weaker.  Could be a Midwest course -- I play plenty of those courses here.  Not very subtle or nuanced -- you learn or see something new on the North a lot.

Mr. Forrest, wondering if final decisions have been made on the renovation plan and/or architect at Papago?  Saw in prior threads that you'd done some work for them.  Not a lot of courses are walkable in the Valley (TS North, Saguaro at Wekopa, and the new Champions at TPC fit that bill).

[Forrest Richardson]

Mark — If the AGA proposal is accepted, it will not be me. The AGA made a series of choices and they exclude me, I am sorry to say. At present, the AGA lists Billy Fuller (Atlanta) as their golf course architect/agronomic consultant. I suspect this process is well from over, even though the City is in negotiations with the AGA and seems intent on awarding them the opportunity.

Check this out:

www.savepapagogolf.com

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