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Tony_Chapman

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Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2004, 11:04:47 AM »
I don't know if I should answer this or not, but if a guy had access to any course (public or private) and were staying in Lincoln or Omaha he could be within an hour of:

- Three Langford and Moreau courses (one with a Maxwell green redesign)

- Four Jeff Brauer courses. His work at Highlands in Lincoln, Woodland Hills (outside of Lincoln), Bent Tree in Council Bluffs and Champions Run in Omaha is quite good.

- A RTJ, Sr. course at the Military base in Bellevue. It has a pretty fun routing and set of greens.

- Pete Dye's Firethorn in Lincoln, with nine additional holes by Rod Whitman

- The Arnold Palmer course Arbor Links in Nebraska City, which if pretty fun.

This scratches the surface and I know it ain't the Hamptons, or Pinehurst, or Kohler but it is some good golf. I should probably add that you can play most any of these for under $75.

Matt_Ward

Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2004, 11:06:51 AM »
David Tepper:

If you include St. George as a site then you must add on as well nearby Mesquite, NV. The courses are OK in St. George --but when you add Wolf Creek at Paradise Canyon you are sure to get a reaction from those who have played there!

Ted Kramer

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Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2004, 11:13:47 AM »
Stowe, VT is a very nice place in the summer time.
Good golf, gorgeous setting, charming town.

-Ted

Billsteele

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Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2004, 11:14:10 AM »
I'll agree with Adam and Matt: New Mexico. It's economical (you can play Pinon Hills, Black Mesa and Paako Ridge for a total of $200  or less), a relatively easy state to drive in, generally uncrowded and you can stay in Santa Fe. That's a pretty compelling foursome. However, I have a feeling that it will not remain underrated for long. By the way, if you're foolish enough, you can drive to Durango, then over the mountains and play Devil's Thumb in Delta and Redlands Mesa in Grand Junction...and, yes, I am that foolish.

Brad Tufts

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Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2004, 12:08:01 AM »
All,

     I think the most underrated destination area for golf is Northern New England.  Either as a group, or separated into its three distinct parts of Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine, Northern New England sports quality golf that is:

1. Accessible, be the course open to public or resort play

2. Not too expensive, as one will not find a course that costs more than $90-$100, with many well below that

3.  Filled with history.  Ross lived for a time in Mass, and later had an office in RI, a relatively short train trip from the endless forests and glacial features of NE.   He did many courses in NH and ME, and couple in VT. This included some well-known favorites, as well as some fun, quirky courses you have never heard of.  Also, many other "Golden Age" or earlier architects made their mark in the Northeast, including Travis, Findlay, Fenn, Park, Stiles and Van Kleek.  

4.  Played in a mild climate.  All of the major golf mags have features on NE, VT especially just before leaf-peeing season in Oct.  This misses the wonderful summer season.  As long as you don't mind a few mosquitoes at dusk, the temps. never rise much above 80 degress in the summer.  Also, despite the harsh winters, golf can be played well into November after the occasional frost delay.

5.  Surrounded by many, many diversions.  These include the Green and White Mountains in VT and NH respectively, the many pure lakes and streams in all three states, and Maine's breathtaking seacoast.  All three states also offer many insights into American colonial history.

6.  Better than the Cape.  Cape Cod golf includes close to 70 courses, public and private, and has many good venues.  However, all of the public courses seem to be locked in at about $50-$60 a round, regardless of their quality relative to the course down the street.  To avoid crowds, you must take a chance with the weather in May or late season.  Also, the Cape is a huge mess of traffic every summer weekend, and you must always wait for a time to get over either of the bridges.  Where can you make tee times at a moment's notice and play in four hours or less in mid-summer?  Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont.

Those planning a trip will be fortunate to find that almost all golf in these three states is accessible.  Economies are not really strong enough to support many private clubs in these areas, but there are a few.  If access is not a problem, Maine has Augusta CC and Portland CC by Ross, Prouts Neck by ?, York Golf & Tennis by Ross.  NH has Bald Peak, Lake Sunapee, Manchester CC by Ross, and Vermont has Ekwanok by Travis, Dorset Field Club, one of the oldest clubs in the nation, Burlington by Ross, CC of Vermont by Cooke, and Vermont National by Nicklaus.

However, the point of this post is the great courses anyone can play.  A quick rundown:

ME:  Golden Age:  Cape Arundel by Travis, Webhannet by Wogan, Kebo Valley by Leeds (same as Myopia)  Penobscot Valley, Poland Spring (orig. by Fenn), Cape Neddick, Biddeford-Saco, Northeast Harbor by Ross (some are 9 Ross, 9 modern), and Boothbay Region, Bath CC by Stiles (both 9 Stiles and 9 new).  Last 20 years:  Belgrade Lakes by Clive Clark, Point Sebago, The Ledges in York, Samoset Resort, Fox Ridge in Auburn, and Sugarloaf by RTJ, which in my opinion, is remote, expensive, brutal, and not always in good shape.

NH:  Golden Age:  By Ross:  Wentworth-by-the-Sea, Mt. Washington Hotel GC, The Balsams (one of the best Ross courses I've ever seen, although almost in Canada), Maplewood Casino, Bethlehem CC, Kingswood GC.  By Ralph Barton, red. by Ron Prichard, Hanover CC.  By Park, North Conway CC.  Last 20 years:  CC of New Hampshire, Canterbury Woods, the two courses at Bretwood, and the controversial course at the Shattuck.

VT(my favorite):  Golden Age:  By Ross, Woodstock GC (red. by many), by Stiles, Rutland CC (highly recommended), by Travis, red. by Rees Jones, Equinox, St. Johnsbury by Park, and the very fun 9-holer, John P. Larkin CC, which is a hidden gem for me even hough i spent 4 college yrs. in VT.  Last 20 years:  Green Mountain National, Ralph Myhre GC in Middlebury (!!), Okemo Valley GC, and several other courses affiliated with ski resorts that should have stuck to the operation of their ski facilities.

There are many other courses than mentioned above where a good game can be had.  I know that some members of the DG know some things about the courses above, and some would scoff at Ross's name being still connected with what is on the ground today in some places, but many of his routings still exist, and to my eye, the spirit of his design still exists.  Also, some laugh at courses that lack tees beyond 6300 yds.  In my experience, some of the shorter courses are much more interesting than those ready for the tour.  N. NE is full of these.  The emphasis is fun golf with a bit of history.  

Only one word of caution when traveling in N. NE:  Those used to driving great distances out west will laugh when they see that Burlington, VT and Portland, ME are only 250 miles apart.  The drive time between these two places is not three hours, it is more like five, and you will feel as though you have driven across the entire country.  The Green and White Mountains run North-South in VT and NH, respectively, and in many cases you have to drive around them on non-interstate roads.  Rural roads often are long and unpredictable, but the extra time can be spent taking in the scenery.  My recommendation would be to choose a golf weeked or vacation in only one of the three places, as traveling between them sometimes adds stress, which is of course what you are there to alleviate.

--Brad  
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 01:40:33 PM by Brad Tufts »
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

blasbe1

Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2004, 08:31:59 AM »
ME:  Golden Age:  Cape Arundel by Travis

Brad:

I can attest to Cape Arundel, a little gem that is a blast to play, lots of classic features left from what I remember and intersting greens, irrespective of its short length.  I played it with my wife and her aunt and uncle on a short wedding trip, we got hit by a mini-noreaster and played through, even with horrible weather it was a real treat.  

What courses that you list (publicly accessible) would you consider as good or better than Cape Arundel?

Surely New England would be a welcomed relief from the mid-summer heat for our friends in the South?

Please, nobody read this post to in anyway endorse any New England sports teams.         ;)

J!-E!-T!-S! - JETS! JETS! JETS!

Bill_McBride

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Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2004, 08:43:05 PM »
Portland Oregon in the summer is my new favorite!

jeffwarne

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Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2004, 09:21:12 PM »
Cary,
I assume you meant the White Witch in Jamaica.
Played there yesterday-wow!
 
I'd never heard of it.Played with 20 pros and travel industry executives and they were all blown away.
Of course,I can't wait for the inane responses that if it weren't located 800 feet above the ocean with spectacular views from 16 holes and numerous incredible elevation changes,(and multiple solid,strategic holes--all shockingly accomplished without hair on the bunkers)it wouldn't be a great course--Kind've like saying if Christie Brinkley wasn't so hot she'd be average.
A higher handicap wouldn't fare well there every day,but the ones I talked to loved it.
It can't be walked either though,so there go the ratings points.

I also enjoyed the Cinammon Hill Course,on the ocean and in the hills-great variety

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jay Cox

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Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2004, 09:28:59 PM »
NH:  Golden Age:  By Ross:  Wentworth-by-the-Sea, Mt. Washington Hotel GC, The Balsams (one of the best Ross courses I've ever seen, although almost in Canada), Maplewood Casino, Bethlehem CC, Kingswood GC.  By Ralph Barton, red. by Ron Prichard, Hanover CC.  By Park, North Conway CC.  Last 20 years:  CC of New Hampshire, Canterbury Woods, the two courses at Bretwood, and the controversial course at the Shattuck.

I had never thought of New England as a golf destination -- mainly because I grew up in Boston and played most of what was worth playing on day trips.  But I think Brad is on to something here.  Since I haven't played most of his Vermont favorites, I'll confine myself to some comments on New Hampshire.

Wentworth-by-the-Sea:  It is indeed by the sea, but there wasn't really enough land to expand it to eighteen holes so there are some rather awkward holes, including one of the worse cape holes I've seen...  There are a handful of shots that do really get the heart pumping, though.  3 on the Doak scale.

The Balsams:  An early (1912) Ross design, with gorgeous lake views.  The course very much gives you the sense of being away from it all, a la Cascades and Cape Breton Highlands.  I really liked the greens and the use of elevation, but I wasn't wild about the long game, especially the tee balls on the longer par 4s and par 5s as a group.  5.

Bretwood:  I think the North Course is one of the most underrated in the state (even though it's fairly highly rated).  It has some fantastic roller-coaster par 4s (including a couple with blind tee shots to landing areas that look much smaller than they are) and an especially good stretch of holes from 4-8. 5.  The South course is a cut below it, but still has some very good holes, especially the Par 4 15th dogleging left along a creek (directly following a natural but fairly gimmicky-looking near-island green par 3).  4.

The Shattuck:  Brad is absolutely right to call this course "controversial."  By reputation, it's nearly impossible, but I didn't find it that hard -- especially since the landing areas are so well defined (it reminds me of Tom Doak's description of the Stadium Course at PGA West in that way).  It is, for the most part, target golf, but I like it far better than most courses of that type for two reasons:  1) it's very well integrated into the land, and the targets don't seem artificial:  you have to drive it into a narrow gap between a rock outcropping and a marsh because there was a narrow gap between a rock outcropping and a marsh, or at least that's the impression the course gives; 2) there are plenty of decisions to make:  go for the par 15th in two over a pond, likely off of a downslope, or not?  try to drive the par 4 17th, with a green set near the top of a wooded hillside? etc.  
There are a couple of ridiculously bad holes:  I hate the first hole, where you have to lay up short of a partially blind ravine to leave a reasonably mid- to long-iron in, and the 7th, a medium-long par 4 with maybe 20 yards of fairway, is overkill.  But it's definitely worth seeing.  6.

A few other New Hampshire courses worth thinking about:  Sky Meadow (one gorgeous long drop shot par 3 and a decent supporting cast of holes), Overlook (some really interesting holes tee-to-green, especially on the front side, but really terrible greens -- boring and in bad shape), Portsmouth (pretty good RTJ design on the water), North Conway (short, originally an Alex Findlay design, some of that still left).

 

Ted Kramer

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Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2004, 08:12:27 AM »
Cary,
I assume you meant the White Witch in Jamaica.
Played there yesterday-wow!
 
I'd never heard of it.Played with 20 pros and travel industry executives and they were all blown away.
Of course,I can't wait for the inane responses that if it weren't located 800 feet above the ocean with spectacular views from 16 holes and numerous incredible elevation changes,(and multiple solid,strategic holes--all shockingly accomplished without hair on the bunkers)it wouldn't be a great course--Kind've like saying if Christie Brinkley wasn't so hot she'd be average.
A higher handicap wouldn't fare well there every day,but the ones I talked to loved it.
It can't be walked either though,so there go the ratings points.

I also enjoyed the Cinammon Hill Course,on the ocean and in the hills-great variety



I stayed in Montego Bay with my wife about 2 years ago for a week or so. I loved Cin Hill, and wasn't such a huge fan of White Witch. I didn't hit the ball all that well at White Witch, and it is very penal . . .maybe thats why I wasn't too crazy about it. I thought that Cinamon Hill was a real gem. Good mix of terrain like you mentioned and the one hole that plays right out to the ocean, just before the short par3, is just superb (I think it was #5, but I could be wrong.

The Wyndham Rose Hall is a great, inexpensive, low key destination for golf. The Wyndham is very affordable and casual while the Ritz up in the mountains, next to the White Witch, is more expensive and more upscale.

Good call on Montego Bay being an under-rated golf destination.

-Ted

Jason Mandel

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Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2004, 09:57:51 AM »
Jeff,

My dad, a 16 handicapper played Cinnamon Hill and White Witch two years ago and he can't stop talking about White Witch, it is absolutely one of his most favorite courses he's ever played.  Had nothing but good things to say about the place and he too, hadn't heard anything about it before playingt it.

Jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

tlavin

Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2004, 10:44:08 AM »
I don't know if I should answer this or not, but if a guy had access to any course (public or private) and were staying in Lincoln or Omaha he could be within an hour of:

Lincoln, Nebraska as an underrated Golf Destination.  Now I've heard everything!

texsport

Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2004, 11:46:58 AM »
Northeast Minnesota with 3 Jeff Brauer courses, The Quarry and Legend@Giants Ridge in Biwabik plus Fortune Bay at Tower. A fun course is Superior National at Lutsen and, of course, Northland by Donald Ross in Duluth.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2004, 11:50:06 AM by John Kendall,Sr. »

Dan Kelly

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Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2004, 12:06:10 PM »
Lincoln, Nebraska as an underrated Golf Destination.  Now I've heard everything!

I don't think you've heard that Chicago, Illinois, is an underrated Golf Destination!  ;)
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Brad Tufts

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Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2004, 09:30:32 PM »
Jason,

     I would put The Balsams, J. P. Larkin, Equinox, and Penobscot Valley on the same level (if not better) than Cape Arundel.  I imagine Kebo Valley would be in the same league, but I have not yet been there.

Jay,

     I have not been to either the Shattuck or the Bretwoods.  I hear they are worth seeing at some point, most likely for the reasons you have mentioned.  I hear they have cleaned up the edges of the Shattuck a bit recently to attract some play, but have never seen the before or the after.  I thought that Wentworth was worth the trip, but perhaps to demonstrate the difficulty of some sites.  The Ross holes are pretty much too narrow to be anything special, and the new holes on the other side of the creek are as disjointed as they are physically from the rest of the course.  #17 is quite fun though, as there is the real possibility of playing a shot from the beach.  As for the Balsams, I was overwhelmed by the setting, and the green complexes especially.  There are a few blind shots here and there, but I think it only adds to the spirit of the place.  I have seen Sky Meadow, and it is not too bad, but only if you can stand the wetlands/target/unwalkable/continuous cartpath nature of the place.  And, I tip my hat to you for remembering Portsmouth CC, a fun course with views of Great Bay, and wideness that encourages letting out the shaft on almost every hole.

--Brad
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Norbert P

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Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2004, 10:48:07 PM »
http://www.thegolfcourses.net/golfcourses/OR/Oregon.htm

 ( Be sure to bring your wellies ! )
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Jonathan Cummings

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Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2004, 01:57:47 AM »
Spokane Wahington as a golfing destination???  That one's a little farfetched.  I've played all the North Idaho and Inland Empire courses, been a member at one for 24 years, been in the golf travel and writing business and have never in my life heard anyone plan a trip to E. Wash/N. Idaho for the golf.  Golf as a secondary reason - maybe, but never a primary reason.  With few exceptions (the ones you can't get on like Spokane CC and Black Rock) it's the land of pleasant but thoroughly forgettable mediocre golf courses.

JC


Jeff Shelman

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Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2004, 02:10:00 AM »
I still think the most underrated destination is the RTJ Golf Trail in Alabama, especially in February and March. I haven't played everywhere on the trail, but the courses I have played have been no worse than solid.

The courses are very reasonably priced. You can walk. You can play 36 different holes at most complexes. And the short courses are a ton of fun.

If you're looking for a guys trip where all you want to do is play 36 a day, grab some dinner and beverages and go to sleep, I say Alabama.

In February and March, the courses in the southern part of the state are in good shape and the weather is usually pretty good. I think it's good golf and a great value.

blasbe1

Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2004, 08:47:17 AM »
I still think the most underrated destination is the RTJ Golf Trail in Alabama,

Jeff:

About six years ago my wife and I set off on the RJT Trail after a wedding in Birmingham, we hit about 4-5 different stops, including the venue in Dothan.  I thought the Senator was the best course of the bunch (the links style course, sister to the Judge, I believe) I think it's also where they have the Nationwide Tour Championship.  I also recall they have a bent grass hybrid green surface which I enjoyed being from the NE.  

I would say the worst part about the trip was the long drives between courses on mostly two-lane roads.  I imagine we averaged about 3 hours of driving a night.  

Now, if we're doing that much driving it's going to be in Ireland or Oregon.  

ChipRoyce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2004, 11:46:22 AM »
Folks, no offense, but in order to be a golf destination, shouldn't it be snow free for at least 5 months out of the year? So much talk of Omaha, Northern New England, and other chilly environs don't neccesarily make me want to hop on a plane - regardless of quality GCA.

I'd like to submit for approval Austin, Texas and its surrounds. Been lots of talk about recent improvements of GCA in the area, including Cimmaron Hills, Spanish Oaks, Barton Creek, Austin Golf Club, Austin Country Club and my home course Great Hills (one of the lowest club handicaps in TX).

Not only do we avoid the evil 4 letter word ... SNOW... the weather is awesome year round, incredible food and lodging, and rounds average 4-4.5 hours.

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2004, 03:23:32 PM »
Joe, ;D

Seriously, there is a lot of good golf in the Bend area, maybe not all top 100 stuff and mostly modern so the area doesn't have the old classics you might find in other areas. But, plenty of variety and great weather May - Oct. I hear a new Kidd course and maybe a C & C are in the works soon also, so only getting better.

jim_lewis

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Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2004, 09:50:05 PM »
kauai
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Bill Gayne

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Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2004, 10:21:33 PM »
Chip,

I'll second Austin. Solid golf, great food and nightlife, easy airport, value, and for the most part good weather.

Bill

Mark Brown

Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2004, 04:02:47 PM »
Although eveybody recognizes Hilton Head Island as a great resort area, it doesn't get due attention for top courses other than Long Cove and Harbour Town. Us locals include Bluffton and Daufuskie Island and Beaufort as part of Hilton Head and the following are "top 100" (or at least 200)quality modern courses. Most of the best courses are private but give me a call and they are accessible.

Moss Creek-South (early Fazio)

Colleton River - Nicklaus: great variety and fun, just refurbished.   -Pete Dye: I love it. Great oaks on front - a parkland setting, the back is wide open on the water and plays like a link course. Small greens, great greensites.

Belfair - Fazio two of the most beautiful courses in the Southeast. Challenging and fun and the 2 courses are very different East-Ross greens. West is more target-like.

Berkeley Hall: 2 good, but not great courses, but fun North has bent greens. Fazio moved a lot of dirt to create interesting elevation changes.

Secession - great traditional golf experience - caddies

Chechessee Creek - Crenshaw & Coore - Raynor influence

Oldfield - good Norman course - not too difficult. Tees are too low profile

Dataw Is. two good courses by Fazio (late 1980s) and Hills
Fazio's is best.

Cherokee by Donald Steele - Ross greens that can be too severe if greens are too fast

Spring Island - Old Tabby Links- Palmer/Seay great setting and experience - good course - 4 or 5 holes that could be better.

Palmetto Bluff - Maybe the most spectacular property on the Southeast coast. Two-thirds the size of HHI. Low- profile Nicklaus course (2 more courses planned) Nicklaus did a great job that blends with natural setting. He spent a lot of time there and it is different and better than his normal courses.

Ford Plantation: 1980s Dye course - another great traditional setting and experience (caddies) two interesting nines - somewht penal

Daufuskie Island

Haig Point - Rees Jones - another great setting and beautful views. Five greens come out to the Sound. Greens are perched. If you play it from the right tees it's pretty good test of golf.

Melrose - Nicklaus early 90s. Under-rated has a number of holes with split fairways. It looks like he had fun with it - a lot of creativity (a few a bit gimmicky) Finishes with 2 holes on the ocean.

There's another 6 or 7 courses that are pretty good and fun to play.

If you don't like modern courses, don't come.

     -West:


TEPaul

Re:Most Underrated US Golf Destination
« Reply #49 on: December 12, 2004, 05:57:35 AM »
Without a scintilla of a doubt by far the most underrated US Golf Destination is Fernandina Beach Municipal golf course! Underneath that Tommy Birdsong (who very well may be the finest Timucuan Indian golf architect who ever lived) course lies an architectural gem that's hard to fathom.

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