[Buck Wolter]

Nelson playing Littler at Pine Valley sometime in the early 60's was on the Golf Channel Monday afternoon. Nelson won by a couple but Littler had a quad on an early par 3 -- #5 I think. Littler played the back under par which seemed no mean feat.

While I have never seen the course before other than some recent pics here, the diagrams they showed of each hole before it was played reminded me of a desert layout. It seemed every hole was a drive over some nasty stuff to an island of fairway that if you hit you had a chance to carry the next nasty stuff to land on an island green. It looks as if they had an acreage restriction on total fairways. If you hit long straight drives on the two shotter's you go for the greens otherwise you lay-up out of some assorted hazard or impossible rough.

In general my impression (limited as it may be) is that this course would not represent the ideals of design that most on this forum would hold as great Golf Course Architecture. A complete lack of ground game and it seemed very limited options outside of long and straight followed by high and soft. What am I missing?

Buck Wolter

[Tim Weiman]

Buck:

Others have asked similiar questions about Pine Valley. I doubt even its greatest supporters would claim it is the "ideal" golf course, if by that you mean playable by all.

Tom Paul is probably our best Pine Valley historian. I think Tom might point out that George Crump never intended to build a golf course for all levels of golfing ability.

I have played Pine Valley with guys who really had no business being there. It can be painful if you don't have a caddie with the courage to say "sir, I think we better pick up and move along".

Fortunately, most of the caddies there know how to do that, I think.

Something like Rustic Canyon or St Andrews might be a better overall concept, but I'm sure glad Crump created what he did.

[redanman]

Desert golf was I think inspired by the Pine Valley style of Island fairways.

My comment to the manager at Desert Highlands when I played that course anew was something like "That is the style of Pine Valley using Cholla, Saguaro, mesquite and Ocotillo rather than pines and brambles."  And Desert Highlands was the first of the genre.

Good observation, Buck.

[ChipOat]

Never thought of PV that way because it doesn't "feel" or look like the desert courses I've played.

As to lack of ground game, before the manadatory watering system was installed (1950's maybe?), the firm turf would encourage a ground game approach on #'s 1,4,5,6,9,11,12 (depending on the length of the drive),13,15 and 16.  Even today, one could do worse on many of those holes than play for the bounce in front of the green.

There is a requirement to "island hop" on the other holes, to be sure.  I happen to prefer this on short par 4's and all but the longest par 3's - on par 5's I go either way depending on the length and topography.

As to impossible rough at Pine Valley in the traditional sense: if it exists there, I've never seen it.

Interesting thread.

P.S. The story at PV is that Littler would have been lucky to make 10 on the 5th hole that day.  It is said that, in order to salvage any interest in the outcome of the competition (18 hole medal play), the producer (Fred Raphael) imposed a "hand mashie" on Gene and a "newspaper 7" was the result.  Hard to imagine John Arthur Brown standing for that but the legend persists to this day.

[Mike Hendren]

Chipoat,

To this day I don't understand why the Shell games aren't match play.  It seems the series has turned into a thinly veiled attempt to market golf courses and/or real estate.  Seems they could mitigate the risk that the match ends early by having some kind of skins game on the remaining holes - or let the caddies play as they did on a recent match between Freddie and Floppy.  

BTW, how can one access the Golf Channel's schedule so as to not miss the rarer matches on classic courses?

Mike

[redanman]

P.S. The story at PV is that Littler would have been lucky to make 10 on the 5th hole that day.  It is said that, in order to salvage any interest in the outcome of the competition (18 hole medal play), the producer (Fred Raphael) imposed a "hand mashie" on Gene and a "newspaper 7" was the result.  Hard to imagine John Arthur Brown standing for that but the legend persists to this day.

Need to link this post to the thread on match vs. medal courses started by Dan King. (Bold highlight above by me.)

[BCrosby]

The story I heard about Littler on no. 5 was that it was Nelson who suggested Littler replay the hole after taking a 9 or 10 the first time through. The producers of SWWG said ok, so Littler goes back and retees. The second time he took a 7 and that was the score that was posted.

An interesting note about how good Nelson was. At the time of the filming, Nelson was almost 50 and had been retired from competitive golf for more than 15 years. Littler had just won or would soon win a US Open and was in the prime of his career.

It's frightening to think how Nelson might have dominated golf (and changed our perceptions of the careers of Hogan and Snead) if he hadn't quit at the height of his game at the age of 34. Remember, Nelson, Hogan and Snead were all born the same year. At the time Nelson retired, he had won 5 majors. Snead had won 2 and Hogan 0.

Nelson is also an extraordinary man. His suggestion that Littler be allowed to play no. 5 over again is just an example of his generous spirit.

Bob

[Scott_Burroughs]

Bob,

Nelson had a little help from World War II, which claimed the service of a good number of the top Tour pros then, just like baseball and the diluted statistics during the early forties.  Joe D and Ted Williams would have had much gaudier career stats had they not been in the service.

[BCrosby]

Scott -

That's the usual argument, but most of the majors were cancelled during WWII. In 1945, when the tour got cranked back up and Nelson's greatest year, Snead played most of the year. Hogan played about half of the year. And it wasn't as if Snead and Hogan spent the war years in a foxhole. They both spent their time playing in service tournaments with the top brass. They returned to civilian life with their games no worse for the wear. In fact, only a couple of weeks after Hogan returned he set a scoring record. To be overturned the next week by Nelson, btw.

The more you look at Nelson's brief career the more amazing it was.

Hogan would still have won lots of big tournaments if Nelson had continued to play post 1946. But Nelson also would have won his fair share and taken some of the trophies off of Hogan's shelf.

Bob

[ChipOat]

Mike Hendren:

Can't answer your first question exactly although the stroke play format DOES, in theory, keep the game alive until the bitter end which, in show biz, is mucho importanto.  A show in the '50s/early '60s called "All Star Golf", hosted by Jimmy Demaret, had the same format.

As to yor second question, can't answer it at all because, although you can get virtually anything you want in New York City, you canNOT get TGC on cable TV and satelite dishes are really not an option for virtually all apartment dwellers.  Plus, I'm told the few with townhouses that have dishes get lousy reception - too many tall buildings, I guess.

[Kelly T]

Here's the upcoming schedule for WWOG on the Golf Channel. The next one is at Royal Melbourne in 1962 -- good comparison versus this weekend's event.

Mon, Feb 3 2:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Gary Player v. Peter Thomson  SWW 61-005  
Thu, Feb 6 8:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Sergio Garcia vs. Phil Mickelson  SWW 01-002  
Thu, Feb 6 11:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Paul Azinger vs. Jesper Parnevik  SWW 00-002  
Fri, Feb 7 11:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Paul Azinger vs. Seve Ballesteros  SWW 95-005  
Sat, Feb 8 11:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Chi Chi Rodriguez vs. Lee Trevino  SWW 95-003  
Sun, Feb 9 11:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Johnny Miller vs. Jack Nicklaus  SWW 97-001  
Mon, Feb 10 2:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  M. Souchak v. R. DeVincenzo  SWW 61-006  
Thu, Feb 13 8:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Tom Watson vs. Hale Irwin  SWW 99-002  
Thu, Feb 20 8:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Jack Nicklaus vs. Gary Player  SWW 00-005  
Sun, Feb 23 11:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Gary Player vs. Lee Trevino  SWW 98-005  
Mon, Feb 24 2:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Ted Kroll v. Chen Ching-Po  SWW 61-008  
Fri, Feb 28 6:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Notah Begay III vs. Hal Sutton  SWW 00-001  
Sun, Mar 2 11:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Jim Furyk vs. Colin Montgomerie  SWW 99-005  
Mon, Mar 3 2:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Billy Casper v. Mario Gonzalez  SWW 61-009  
Tue, Mar 4 9:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Nick Faldo vs. Greg Norman  SWW 94-003  
Wed, Mar 5 12:00 am  Shells World of Golf  Nick Faldo vs. Greg Norman  SWW 94-003  
Mon, Mar 10 2:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Peter Alliss v Dow Finsterwald  SWW 62-001  
Tue, Mar 11 9:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Karrie Webb vs. Annika Sorenstam  SWW 01-004  
Wed, Mar 12 12:00 am  Shells World of Golf  Karrie Webb vs. Annika Sorenstam  SWW 01-004  
Thu, Mar 13 8:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Tom Watson vs. Fred Couples  SWW 97-002  
Mon, Mar 17 2:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  D. Ragan v. C. Tugot  SWW 62-002  
Tue, Mar 18 9:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Leonard v. Love III  SWW 98-003  
Wed, Mar 19 12:00 am  Shells World of Golf  Leonard v. Love III  SWW 98-003  
Thu, Mar 20 11:00 am  Shells World of Golf  Gary Player v. Peter Thomson  SWW 61-005  
Thu, Mar 20 8:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Seve Ballesteros vs. Tom Kite  SWW 97-005  
Thu, Mar 20 11:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Seve Ballesteros vs. Tom Kite  SWW 97-005  
Fri, Mar 21 11:00 am  Shells World of Golf  Arnold Palmer vs. Gary Player  SWW 96-001  
Fri, Mar 21 11:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Fred Couples vs. John Daly  SWW 99-004  
Sat, Mar 22 8:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Ernie Els vs. Phil Mickelson  SWW 95-004  
Sat, Mar 22 11:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Ernie Els vs. Phil Mickelson  SWW 95-004  
Sun, Mar 23 8:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Ernie Els vs. David Duval  SWW 00-003  
Sun, Mar 23 11:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Ernie Els vs. David Duval  SWW 00-003  
Mon, Mar 24 11:00 am  Shells World of Golf  Jack Nicklaus vs. Lee Trevino  SWW 96-002  
Mon, Mar 24 2:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Art Wall v. Stan Leonard  SWW 62-003  
Tue, Mar 25 9:00 am  Shells World of Golf  Ben Crenshaw vs. Tom Kite  SWW 96-003  
Tue, Mar 25 11:00 am  Shells World of Golf  Seve Ballesteros vs. Tom Kite  SWW 97-005  
Wed, Mar 26 9:00 am  Shells World of Golf  Payne Stewart vs. Nick Price  SWW 98-002  
Wed, Mar 26 11:00 am  Shells World of Golf  Nicklaus v. Palmer  SWW 01-006  
Thu, Mar 27 9:00 am  Shells World of Golf  Fred Couples vs. Raymond Floyd  SWW 94-001  
Fri, Mar 28 9:00 am  Shells World of Golf  Couples v. Norman  SWW 96-004  
Sat, Mar 29 9:00 am  Shells World of Golf  Ernie Els vs. David Duval  SWW 00-003  
Sun, Mar 30 9:00 am  Shells World of Golf  Notah Begay III vs. Hal Sutton  SWW 00-001  
Mon, Mar 31 2:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Byron Nelson v. Gerry De Witt  SWW 62-005  
Tue, Apr 1 9:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Nicklaus v. Palmer  SWW 01-006  
Wed, Apr 2 12:00 am  Shells World of Golf  Nicklaus v. Palmer  SWW 01-006  
Mon, Apr 7 2:00 pm  Shells World of Golf  Phil Rodgers v. Frank Phillips  SWW 62-006  

[Michael Dugger]

Hey Kelly,

Is it possible for you to tell us where the matches are being played??

Thanks

[TEPaul]

Buck W;

Is Pine Valley desert golf?

Of course not, although you've surely come up with an interesting design element that's very similar----that being a prevalence of "island" type fairways on both.

But obviously, Crump wasn't inspired by desert golf since no desert golf course was built until well after Crump's death.

Were the "island" fairways of many of the desert golf courses inspired by Pine Valley? One might say so but I'd bet anything they'd be wholly wrong. I'd have to say the island type fairways of the desert course is a result of a paucity of water and limited water use in the desert and now apparently well known restrictions on the total amount of fairway acreage allowed on desert courses.

But how PVGC came to have those unique island fairways that early is a real fascination--one I'd like to get to the bottom of very soon. Were they an original Crump idea (they definitely were not Colt's)? That's a really good question and if they weren't it's mighty interesting to speculate where he might have come up with the idea that early in the evolution of architecture.

I'm betting the idea was uniquely Crump's and the reasons for it could also be pretty interesting.

There's another interesting thing about that style of island fairway that Wayne Morrison and I have picked up on with William Flynn and that is he started to use them in almost all his designs for about 5-6 years, and sometimes later, on different types of courses (like Shinnecock) after what we see as sort of Flynn's "Pine Valley" period.

At first we thought it might be just coincidence with Flynn but then it became clear it wasn't coincidence, and Wayne and I started calling them "segmented" fairways but then sure enough on the Yorktown course design topo right there on the bottom the concept was actually identified as something like "the new, popular-----style fairway" (for the life of me I can't think at this moment what it was that Flynn called what we've been calling "segmented" fairways. I'd go look on the Yorktown topo but Wayne has it at his house right now and I'm sure he'll probably chime in with it later).

[Paul Turner]

There were island fairways before Pine Valley, the 6th at Sunningdale Old being an obvious example.

[Brian Phillips]

Paul,

It makes you wonder if some people on this site think that PV came before Sunningdale...

...and some people try to hide the fact that the man from Sunningdale actually routed PV...nah...they wouldn't do that would they Paul?

Is that possible...that Colt isn't given credit for routing PV...?

Brian

[TEPaul]

Brian:

The routing of Pine Valley is a long story but we're getting there.

[wsmorrison]

Tom Paul,

The Yorktown Country Club promotional material shows two 18 hole golf courses designed by William Flynn in 1923 with "The Modern Interrupted Fairway Construction."  These 2 courses had a total of 8 par 3s, and of the remaining 28 holes, 24 are designed with the interrupted or segmented fairways as Tom and I call them.  On various course designs, the areas between fairways consisted of rough, discreet bunkers, undulating sandy waste areas, or sometimes streams.  Of the two courses at Yorktown, only the River Course was actually completed and we are awaiting aerial photos from Dan Wexler to see how the course was built and/or maintained.  

Although this is the only time we have seen the design feature specifically named, as Tom said they appear quite often in the Flynn drawings of the early 20s and as late as early 30s such as Shinnecock (Flynn's Pine Valley influence).  I say Pine Valley influence since Flynn never did visit the UK or Europe to see Sunningdale Old or other precursors.  However, it is clear that Flynn certainly learned of the Old World courses through his long association with Hugh Wilson, contemporary fellow architects, and his worldly patrons.  

What is interesting is that even though the designs were often drawn that way, construction and early post-construction photos on many of the Flynn courses rarely show these island fairways.  We are not sure why they were lost if ever they were there.  Perhaps the membership wanted something a bit easier for those that had to roll the ball from tee to green.  Perhaps the widespread use of modern irrigation systems plays a role in their loss.  Kittansett still has the segmented fairways separated by rough on many of the holes but the rough does not appear to be kept too penal.

Are there modern architects that use segmented fairways systematically on their courses?  I think it is an outstanding feature for courses that get a lot of high class play.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Pine Valley is not desert golf.  Here is my argument as to why it is not.  Stop watering a desert course and in 2-3 months you will not even know that a course was once there.  Stop watering PVGC and it would take several years before you couldn't play it, and several decades before the course was so grown in that you would not recognize that a golf course once existed there.

While I enjoy playing golf in the desert, it is unarguably an unnatural place for a golf course to exist.  Pine Valley exists in a wonderfully natural environment where the setting compliments and is well integrated with the golf course.

Let's go a step further and stop watering TOC.  In a couple of centuries it is......  a golf course.

JC

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jonathan,

I think that PV sits on a rather hostile site.  Not as extreme as the desert sites, but hostile nontheless.

I don't see it surviving through a summer without water.

[redanman]

To modify Sam's famous qoute

"A golf course architecture thread is a dangerous place to use a brain."

Sometimes you guys think too goddamn much.

[Steve Curry]

I agree with Pat  , Pine Valley is on little else but native sand.  The primary difference is the climate, specifically the humidity.  The turf would probably die pretty quick without water depending on the rainfall.  So I would say that as far as topography and geology it is very much like desert golf.  TE, your assumption that desert courses are segmented because of water restrictions may also be behind the design of PV.  In the 19teens water was probably a consideration and abundant rough would have needed a lot of it?

Regards,
Steve

[TEPaul]

SteveC:

Historic documentation exists to show that water (for irrigation purposes) was never a problem for Pine Valley not even remotely.

The problem was immense with the fairway grass that in the beginning (after opening) had everything to do with the fact they had no growing medium (although plenty of irrigation water).

In that way Pine Valley was closely parallel to the growing problems NGLA initially experienced. Both courses were obviously trying to grow grass on sand and the grass would take for a little while and then just sort of burn out and burn up and die. They were giving both courses the necessary water but it was just immediately draining through since there was not the proper dirt mix with sand growing medium to contain the moisture long enough!

Pine Valley's options looked pretty severe at that time. One was to just plow the entire "through the green" course up and lay on the proper dirt/sand mix. The second option was to just continue to dump dirt mix on top of the sand and water the hell out of it hoping somehow it would work. They dropped the first option from consideration because of both expense and it would take the course out of play for a year or more.

They went with the second option and to their amazement it worked better than they thought it would as apparently the dirt mix (humus, dirt, manure etc) filtered into the natural extremely porous sand base really well and they were in business.

Intersestingly, the ones who sort of developed and did that process for PVGC were the Wilsons of Merion (probably including Toomey and Flynn et al) as all of them in conjunction with Piper and Oakley had at that time become probably the foremost experts on golf course agronomy in the world!

Paul Turner:

I just ran across a letter from Colt to Wilson (Colt said hope you recall meeting, it's been so many years) asking Wilson to please send him every bit of info he had on golf course agronomy as he had heard it was substantial and effective.

Wilson wrote to Oakley and Piper that he was happy to get that letter from Harry because in his opinion (Wilson's) they didn't know crap about growing golf course grass on the other side of the pond.

All of them (the Wilson/US dept of Ag team) were experimenting with and really pushing the first real use of bent grass on golf courses.

[Paul Turner]

Tom

That's cool, when was the letter dated, roughly?  Where did you find it?  Colt was very much into agronomy, he studied it in depth.  Wilson thought the Brits were no good at growing grass, that's interesting, but I believe it was British company, Carters Seeds that seeded Pine Valley.  Perhaps they did a poor job!?  You see ads for them and Suttons seeds throughout the old magazines, both UK and US.

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