[Kelly Blake Moran]

Geoffrey,

Jesus, God Almighty, I would never have thought I would hear such an understanding tone regarding this subject from the gatekeeper at Yale.  I have always been inspired by your dogged pursuits regarding Yale, but now this from you.  I know you have been out on the ledge since the election, but you're gonna have to move over now and make room for me.  

And while I am at it and feeling bold, God Bless David Wigler for posting that article on Arafat that got taken down so fast.  I am glad the bastard is dead, Arafat that is not David, and I am glad the French finally did something in the war on terror by letting their doctors kill him.  

[GeoffreyC]

Kelly

Well we can finally agree on something of substance - re- Arafat.  The bastard is finally gone and his wife gets 22 million a year.

I played Seawane not knowing beforehand if it was an attempted restoration or not.  I loved it. Good on them.

Roger Rulewich will ALWAYS be THE BUTCHER OF YALE.
1- Yale is a landmark historic course that is unique
2- There is available all the information necessary for a faithful nearly precise restoration of what was built in 1926.

At Yale, they purposly dumbed down features for the sake of maintenance, pace of play and a feeling that aspects of the course were obsolete      

At Seawane, they opened up all the vistas, built punishing cross hazards and mounding that make the course much harder to play and maintain.  They have reintroduced the links nature of the course and the influence of wind. Ask Jason what research they had available but it certainly is nothing close to what they have at Yale.

Dev Emmet deserves some significant work of his to be restored.  His legacy was hurt due to the proximity of much of his significant courses being close to urban centers where land was more valuable for development then it was for golf. Perhaps Tom MacWood can comment on Huntington and St Georges as candidates for "sensitive restorations".  I hope to see both of those next season.

[T_MacWood]

I agree with Geoffrey regarding Emmet. I would disagree with KB's generalization about GCA...Emmet being a prime example of a dead architect who rarely gets his due. IMO the relative silence on this thread is partially a result of not knowing much about the history of Seawane and not know much about Emmet generally. I wish I knew more about him and his work; that was a primary reason for visiting St. Georges and Huntington. I was impressed by both courses, especially Huntington.

Here is an earlier thread on Seawane involving GCA members who are knowledgable fans of Emmet (Jason, Chris B and Craig D). I'm always interested in learning more about Emmet, perhaps Kelly might know something about Seawane or/and Emmet that he could share with us.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=7202;start=msg139404#msg139404

I don't know much about Kay and restoration abilities...my only encounter with his work was at Ross's Oyster Harbors which was disapointing.

[blasbe1]

Interpretive, tribute design work.  Wow.  I guess as long as you are one of the blessed GCA architects on this site you can do anything and call it anything and everyone else here will nod thier approval.  

Kelly:

I'm at Cuscowilla with my Dad getting my arse kicked 0-4 in our first four matches.  We need to win the last this morning to avoid a goose egg.  Thus, my wanting response to your earlier posts.

I invite you to come tour Seawane anytime, if you'd like a more professional perspective just let me know and I'll be happy to try and round up our superintendent (who, with his crew, has done everything besides some shaping) and golf professional (who has been invaluable in providing a strong player's perspective to the project).  That being said, I would suggest that we have accomplished much more than just "anything," and, moreover, it is far from a direct tribute to Emmet.  At first, this interpretive approach concerned me because I gravitate toward traditionalism in these sorts of things, however, the product that we've revealed is IMO fantastic and much better than I ever thought it would be.  

In many ways, we have created a new golf course by keeping the original routing and greens while staying true to the links tradition.  So much (besides the routing and the greens) had been altered from the original Emmet over time before this project began (e.g., Jones in the 60s; 3000-5000 trees planted after the 64 Worlds Fair; Kay in the 80s) that even with the old aerials that we had, as much work would have likely been required for a total restoration as what we've done.  

Moreover, a total restoration would never have been able to capture the original Seawane brilliance because the course used to be ensconsed in sand dunes and open bay views from nearly every hole.  Since then, the neighborhood of Hewlett Harbor was built around the club (on land not owned by the club or otherwise reclaimed from the bay).  

Interestingly, the original membership contained a short who's who list of the Manhattan gentry of the time.  Along with the fate of Long Beach and the other resorty beach areas of that time in the Five Towns, the allure and quality of our course at Seawane unfortunately faded over time.  

While Long Beach is currently enjoying a revival so is our course at Seawane.  The current membership bought the Club back from the village of Hewlett Harbor in the 60s (after the original membership lost the club) and has currently taken a tremedous step toward placing Seawane back on the map.

Please come and see and then tell us all we've done is pay homage to Emmett . . . I think you'll find things pleasently more complex.  

Cheers,

Jason  

[T_MacWood]

Jason
Who is the designer (or designers) of your new course? Would it be a mistake for a student of golf architecture to come to Seawane to see the work of Devereux Emmet?

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Jason,

It really is not fair to quote my "anything" phrase to make it seem like I am putting down your course, which I am not doing, I am questioning the reactions of the GCA site though.

again, is the talented shaper Dave Sullivan?  Everyone seems to be given the highest accolades by name, yet the shaper is remaining anonymous.

[blasbe1]

Jason,

It really is not fair to quote my "anything" phrase to make it seem like I am putting down your course, which I am not doing, I am questioning the reactions of the GCA site though.

again, is the talented shaper Dave Sullivan?  Everyone seems to be given the highest accolades by name, yet the shaper is remaining anonymous.

Sorry Kelly, I missed the otherwise neutral tone of your post.  The shaper remains anonymous only b/c I can't remember his name (which is no reflection of his talented work, I've not yet met him).

[blasbe1]

Jason
Who is the designer (or designers) of your new course? Would it be a mistake for a student of golf architecture to come to Seawane to see the work of Devereux Emmet?

The consulting architect is Kay, not sure if that's your question.
Much of the actual product on the ground has been a collaberation of sorts as the boys were digging in the dirt.

It would be a mistake for a student of GCA to not come to Seawane because they are interested only with Emmet and not interested in something that's a renovation as opposed to a restoration.  You will see much of Emmet in the routing, the greens and the green/tee complexes, but the bunkering is no longer Emmet shaped.  

I think you will also see some sound strategic elements and a good variety of playing angles that, combined with the wind, should yield an enjoyable round on a course that many have told me would be a great course to play day after day, in large part b.c of the variety and the greens.    



     

[corey miller]

I have never played a Kay course, but I have seen one of his renovations which I do not care for.  I am glad Seawane turned out well for the members sake.  

Jason-What did Kay do at the club in the eighties?  From the sound of it it looks like he may have been part of the original problem, why bring him back?  Is Kay one who has a renovation style easily molded by the memberships?

[blasbe1]

was the course kept in play in a reduced format during this renovation or were temporary greens used?

James:

One of the great accomplishments of this project has been keeping the course open and playable for the membership throughout the 5 year project.  We did close 3-4 holes each October, renovated them, and then opened them for play the first weekend in May for the Richardson Invitational (a locally competitive amateur event).  The new holes were difficult to play for the first month or so and all the new sod was gur but the membership has had an 18 course from Memorial to Labor Day throughout.  

I cannot stress enough how hard and how well our super Brian Bennedict and his crew have worked these past 4 plus years.  They have rebuilt and maintained the course in excellent condition at the same time which cannot be easy when so much focus has rightly been on the renovation.  

[blasbe1]

I have never played a Kay course, but I have seen one of his renovations which I do not care for.  I am glad Seawane turned out well for the members sake.  

Corey:

Your post reveals a way of thinking that is one of the things that troubles me about this site.  The heard instinct is so strong here that while you have never played a Kay course, have seen only one of his projects, you post critically (sorry but it's not a flatering post for Mr. Kay).  

Our membership's sake as nothing to do with the issue.  With Kay's firm as the consulting architect, we at Seawane have created what I, and many on this site who have seen it, believe to be a first rate product.  

This is not directed only to Corey:

Guys and Gals, forget the name on the scorecard and see what's on the ground.  If I told you the architect of the new Seawane course is Mr. X/Greens Chairman, I imagine that many here would have nothing to say.  The fact is that a project like this is not the work of Kay's firm, or our grounds staff, or our greens committee or any of the above in isolation, it's been a true collaboration and I have said this time after time on this board and yet so many of you gravitate to a name, Emmett . . . Kay (you're closer if you find Mr. X).  While I will leave  intricate dynamics of these relationships off this board, I will say do not look at Seawane as a Kay renovation per se, do not look at Seawane as an in-house project per se . . .

just come look at Seawane and comment on what you see.

[blasbe1]

What did Kay do at the club in the eighties? . . .

Corey:

Your better question (IMO).

I'm not sure of the extent but I know Kay did some work on the 17th hole and redid the putting green I believe.  On 17 (a longish par 5) and with a past greens chairman, Kay added a great cross bunker complex between 120 and 100 yards from the green.  It had grass islands but for some unfortunate reason was in a state of disrepair when I first saw it in 2000 and it was removed during this project.  

BTW, and Mr. Childs I know agrees, I believe 17 is our weakest hole strategy wise for want of any ostensible risk reward option off the tee and want of any hazard in the lay up area besides the perimeter bunkers down either side of the hole.  

We realized this and it's my understanding that we are adding a new tee right of the current back tee box.  This will create a much better angle for the tee shot and force a heroic 265 yd carry from the back tee over the menacing sod walled bunker down the right side of the fairway for the shorter and possible two shot route to the green.

[corey miller]

Don't be so sensitive Jason.  I am glad the club is happy they are the ultimate arbitors and are also ultimately responsible. What else can I say that will meet your standards?  

The point of the post was that in your original post you said that Kay was reponsible for getting rid of some of the Emmet in the 1980's, along with others.  Why bring the man back again, didn't he have his chance?  

Your post reveals an attitude that is one of the things that troubles me about this site,  People always looking for an arguement.

As a member of a green committee, at a club that is going through the renovation process I am truly interested in why the club, and Kay, and the comittee, and others, did not get it right in the eighties.  Is the process different?

[blasbe1]

Don't be so sensitive Jason.

. . .  

The point of the post was that in your original post you said that Kay was reponsible for getting rid of some of the Emmet in the 1980's, along with others.  Why bring the man back again, didn't he have his chance?  . . .

As a member of a green committee, at a club that is going through the renovation process I am truly interested in why the club, and Kay, and the comittee, and others, did not get it right in the eighties.  Is the process different?

Corey:

1) I'm a lawyer, I'm never sensitive

2) You're right to have interpreted my post that way, based on the course that Kay had to work with in the 80s I would say he did more to restore, at least the intent of Emmet, in the 80s than anything else.  The real Emmet damage appears to have been done by 1) Jones bunker project in the 60s and 2) planting thousands of trees after the Worlds Fair.

I mentioned Kay's work in the 80s to emphasize that what we had to work with for the current project had been touched by many hands over time (note, I've not mentioned all the little projects of greens chairmen past, those add up too).

3) Things were very different from the memberships' perspective this time around b/c we decided to radically change what we had in order to revive a sleeping (dare I say comatose) links.  

       

[blasbe1]

Your post reveals an attitude that is one of the things that troubles me about this site,  People always looking for an arguement.

Touche, but I never argue just for arguments sake.  

[blasbe1]

After taking a quick look at the progress of holes 7-9 I ran into and met the shaper who has been doing fantastic work for us, Kevin Wagar.  

Kevin said that for most of the heavy lifting work he's using a D-7 catapillar and for the more detailed finger work, etc., he's using a D-5 and also an "escavator."

I'll post some more pictures when most of the bunkering is sodded.



 

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

As I stated last year on a Maidstone post, I'll take Seawane and Inwood over Maidstone any day.  Perhaps with the restored water and dunes views, people will recognize the greatness.  Playing Seawane has always been a pleasure because the greens are loaded with interesting humps and bumps and wild but fair pin positions.  And enough cannot be said about how great the 4th hole stands among the famous drivable risk/reward holes! I really look forward to playing the 9th next year--it used to be a gimmie birdie, it sure looks like there will be a few train wrecks in the Richardson. pro-member, and 5-towns aming the better players next year.

[blasbe1]

And enough cannot be said about how great the 4th hole stands among the famous drivable risk/reward holes! I really look forward to playing the 9th next year--it used to be a gimmie birdie, it sure looks like there will be a few train wrecks in the Richardson. pro-member, and 5-towns aming the better players next year.

# 4) I still pray that #4 is my first hole-in-one.  My closest attempt this past year was driver to 6 feet and made it for eagle (to beat a birdie, btw).

#9) Was clearly our weakest hole design wise.  So we've added the cross bunker (pictured above) angled toward the green from left to right.  Off the back tees it's about a 250 yd carry over the front left (closer to the left side which is out of bounds) and 265 over the back right (the safe line to avoid the out of bounds if you happen to hook it).  Unless you routinely carry it 260 plus it's now going to make you seriously think off the tee and if there's a wind in your face it may be a fairway wood for even the long hitters.  The great thing about that play is that you could still hit two fairway woods on or in the green side bunkers.  It's going to be a much better hole.  

[T_MacWood]

As I stated last year on a Maidstone post, I'll take Seawane and Inwood over Maidstone any day.

I believe Matt Ward is another not too crazy about Maidstone. Is there another golf couse that frustrates the long hitter more than Maidstone? I can understand why they don't care for it...it is one clever design (designed to mess with those who like to swing away).

I have not played Seawane, but prefer Maidstone to today's Inwood by a large margin....and I like Inwood. The Inwood of the 1930's might have been a different story.

[Mike_Cirba]

I think I've learned one thing from this thread.

Despite my gut reaction favoring a true Emmett restoration on purely philosophical grounds, it seems that much of his fingerprints are long since gone.  Fortunately, it does sound as though the greens remain.

So, I'm left with massive tree clearing, institution of cross bunkering (an Emmett standard), reintroduction of strategy into what sounds like formerly benign holes, and a committed membership.

From an architectural standpoint, Kay seems to be one of those guys who works in a variety of style.  He has done some really cool things (i.e. his links course in North Dakota and the ideology of the holes at McCullough's Emerald Links in NJ, where among other things, he tried a replica of the original Lido Hole), some middling stuff (Architects Golf Club), and some flat out flaccid renovations that stand out incongruously at places like Geoffrey's home town course.  However, I sense that like many architects, he is mostly beholden to the client's wishes and performs those services professionally even when his heart might be in another place.

Most of all, what I've learned from this thread is that I need to get out and see Seawane next year.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kelly Blake Moran,

This site lives off the work of dead architects, and few blessed living ones, and yes I would put Steven Kay in there because Brad Klein, who is highly regarded by the faithful on this site praised Steven for the work on this course, so while I agree with your last statement to some extent, I am amazed that a Dev Emmitt course that is undergoing an interpretive, tribute renovation is being praised on this site.

You're correct.

If Fazio, Jones or some other architect performed "interpretive, tribute renovations", this site would go ballistic.

It's disengenuous at best.

How can anyone know what the final product will be like, or what it will be categorized as, without having the benefit of having played it ?

Tom MacWood's concern over "interpretive restoration" is a very real one, because club's often use the catch all, nice ring to it, phrase, to describe renovation, not restoration work.

And, if clubs do this every 20-30 years, how long before nothing is left of the original work ?
[/color]

I doubt seriously that many here would agree that you can do what you please at any course and as long as the course reamins viable so be it.  

Kelly, it again depends on whether or not the architect has had "most favored nation" status bestowed on them.[/color]

But, that is not what I wanted to focus on, I want to know if the gifted shaper Jason failed to name is Dave Sullivan.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
Being an architect based in Emmet country, I'm still waiting for Kelly to share with us what he knows about Emmet and Seawane. Pat maybe you have some interesting information you could share with us on Emmet and Seawane. Where would you place Seawane among Emmet's portfolio of notable designs....I suspect it is up there, but I'm not certain...I've run across very little information on the golf course.

I'll hold out judgment until I know a little more about Seawane. As far as Kay is concerned, I don't know much about him either, what I've seen of his restoration efforts is limited to Oyster Harbors and I was extremely disapointing. What were your impressions of his work at Seawane or Oyster Harbors?

I'm not surprised Kelly jumped at the opportunity, being a desciple of Von Hagge I suspect he is a bit sensative to criticisms of compromised great courses. We all know you are extremely sensative to the criticisms against Rees and his sloppy work on famous courses. The positive aspect of both Rees and Fazio's molestation efforts, they choose famous courses with significant amounts of historical documentation: Equinox, Bethpage, Inverness, Oak Hill, Riviera, Merion, East Lake, Maidstone, Sea Island, Hollywood, Quaker Ridge, Lake Merced, Monterey Peninsula, Ridgewood, etc, etc...it reads like a who's who.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick/Kelly;

I frankly don't think anyone is giving Kay a free pass on this one, nor do I think he is one of the "most favored" architects on this site.  

I can well recall both Paul Turner and I giving "The Architects Club" a pretty derisive critical review here, but I've also pointed out other work of his that has been good, or daring.  

I think the issue with Seawane is that there seems to be a lot of question how much of Emmett was still there before Kay began his work.  It sounds as though a combination of RTJ Sr. and a lot of free trees from the Worlds Fair disfigured that course as Emmett built it.  As it stood, let's face it, it was not one of the most highly regarded courses in the region.  

When a guy like Geoff Childs suggests a visit, I listen because he knows hatchet jobs versus good work.  

In the case of Rees or Fazio, the difference is that a lot of what they touched were the most highly regarded and well preserved courses and their track record is mixed at best.

The bottom line is that if Stephen Kay did what Fazio did at Merion, Riviera, or Inverness, we'd be lining up with pitchforks and torches.  And, if C&C, or Tom Doak, or Kelly Moran did what Fazio did at Merion, Riviera, or Inverness....well....they simply wouldn't do what Fazio did at Merion, Riviera or Inverness.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat maybe you have some interesting information you could share with us on Emmet and Seawane. Where would you place Seawane among Emmet's portfolio of notable designs....I suspect it is up there, but I'm not certain...I've run across very little information on the golf course.
I haven't undertaken a "ranking" exercise with respect to Emmett's designs[/color]

I'll hold out judgment until I know a little more about Seawane. As far as Kay is concerned, I don't know much about him either, what I've seen of his restoration efforts is limited to Oyster Harbors and I was extremely disapointing.
What were your impressions of his work at Seawane or Oyster Harbors?

I've never played Oyster Harbors and most if not all of my play at Seawane has been pre-Kay.[/color]

I'm not surprised Kelly jumped at the opportunity, being a desciple of Von Hagge I suspect he is a bit sensative to criticisms of compromised great courses.

I'll let Kelly speak for himself, but why would you make the arrogant assumption that Kelly is a "disciple" of Von Hagge ?

Why would you make the foolish assumption that because Kelly worked with Von Hagge that he shares Von Hagge's design philosophy.

You might be interested to find out that he doesn't, that his design philosophy is quite different from that of Von Hagge's.

You continue to make outrageous claims that aren't supported by the facts.  That's your trademark.[/color]

We all know you are extremely sensative to the criticisms against Rees and his sloppy work on famous courses. The positive aspect of both Rees and Fazio's molestation efforts, they choose famous courses with significant amounts of historical documentation: Equinox, Bethpage, Inverness, Oak Hill, Riviera, Merion, East Lake, Maidstone, Sea Island, Hollywood, Quaker Ridge, Lake Merced, Monterey Peninsula, Ridgewood, etc, etc...it reads like a who's who.
Tell me Tom, did you sit in on ANY of the committee, Board and Membership meetings at Equinox, Bethpage, Inverness, Oak Hill, Riviera, Merion, East Lake, Maidstone, Sea Island, Hollywood, Quaker Ridge, Lake Merced, Monterey Peninsula, and Ridgewood ?

Do you know, for a fact, exactly what those clubs directed Rees or Fazio to do to THEIR golf courses ?

If not, perhaps you should do more research, rather then indiscriminately assigning blame.[/color]

Mike Cirba,

I disagree.

I always liked Seawane, and I began playing it in the mid 60's

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick/Kelly;

I frankly don't think anyone is giving Kay a free pass on this one, nor do I think he is one of the "most favored" architects on this site.  

I can well recall both Paul Turner and I giving "The Architects Club" a pretty derisive critical review here, but I've also pointed out other work of his that has been good, or daring.  

I think the issue with Seawane is that there seems to be a lot of question how much of Emmett was still there before Kay began his work.  It sounds as though a combination of RTJ Sr. and a lot of free trees from the Worlds Fair disfigured that course as Emmett built it.  As it stood, let's face it, it was not one of the most highly regarded courses in the region.  

When a guy like Geoff Childs suggests a visit, I listen because he knows hatchet jobs versus good work.  

In the case of Rees or Fazio, the difference is that a lot of what they touched were the most highly regarded and well preserved courses and their track record is mixed at best.

The bottom line is that if Stephen Kay did what Fazio did at Merion, Riviera, or Inverness, we'd be lining up with pitchforks and torches.  And, if C&C, or Tom Doak, or Kelly Moran did what Fazio did at Merion, Riviera, or Inverness....well....they simply wouldn't do what Fazio did at Merion, Riviera or Inverness.

Patrick;

Which part of my post do you disagree with?  

Perhaps you liked Seawane prior to Kay's work, but would you put it in your top 50 or so in the tri-state region?

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