[John_Conley]

Perhaps more telling than 280.0 as an average on the PGA Tour is the data from the Buy.com last year.

#1:  Viktor Schwamkrug  328.5 for 144 measured drives
#15:  Fran Quinn  301.6 for 92 measured drives, the last in the 300+ club
#22:  Gary Hallberg  297.1 for 130 measured drives
#49t:  Doug Dunakey and Anthony Painter, both 292.0 for 128 measured drives
#133 of 146 total members:  David Ogrin  276.2

Now, you could try to argue that they'll lose a dozen or so yards when they make it to the main Tour.  More likely is the premise that they have better conditions for roll and less inclement weather - fewer early season events - than the PGA Tour counterparts.

If you want to cite statistics for golf and argue that Suzy Whaley "can" hit it 250 or that Annika did average 280 in such-and-such event, keep in mind that these figures came from golf's AAA, where the group is by definition not at the PGA Tour level.

What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?  Simple, #1 - it goes a long way to support my contention that Annika Sorenstam carries the ball at least 30-40 yards shorter than a rank-and-file Tour player, and #2 - when discussing golf architecture, the distance these players hit it is so far removed from the real world where 90+% of all golfers are unable to carry the ball more than 180.

Collect an extra $200 when you pass GO if you knew Gary Hallberg is a long hitter.

[John_Conley]

108 different players had a drive measured at 350 or more in a Buy.com event in 2002.

18 hit one 375 or more.

3 broke 400.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it next time someone hits ONE drive an absurd length.  A co-worker kept telling me that Annika hit a drive 300 on TV.  Hit it 300 and HITS it 300 are two different things.

Food for thought.

Here's a corrollary for Sobe and others to mull over.  We have discussed how the LPGA doesn't really want to let on how inferior their product is IF COMPARED TO an unreasonable target like the men.  That said, is it possible for the PGA Tour to ever get the message across just how good its members are?

I know These Guys Are Good!, but that doesn't really tell the full story.

[Paul Richards]

John;

The real answer is TOO FAR.

[Mike Benham]

The Golf Channel has the series called "Playing with the Pro" where the will play, typically, at the Pro's home club.  They talk about there thought process as they play some of the holes both from a strategy standpoint and a technical side about their swing.

I remember seeing the one with Lee Janzen and in particulur, he had 144 yards to the pin with a slight crossing breeze and he said that it was a "perfect 8-iron for him".  And I said, "Wow, I can do that too!".  His driver distance was not out of this world, in the 260-270 range.  The difference was that the course was not set-up (read: HARD AND FAST) like many of the tour courses today.

The Nick Price episode (remember the one where Whitey told Beav "Go ahead put your foot on her thumb" when he was stuck in the tea cup on the billboard - sorry for the flashback ...) also had him hitting irons a reasonable distance although he did uncork a few drive in the 300 yard range ...

[redanman]

Darren Clarke in Golf Digest said "In the Bag" he planned on 275 yds carry.  Fudge factor of 10%= 27.5, do the math, 302.5 carry max.

Go figure.

I would say that most pros don't flinch at a 255-260 carry with the driver , add 10-30 yds roll, easily plan on 285 -295 unless wet and into the wind.

Seriously,broken down, ridiculously arthritic 52 year old with a bad back (Me), true 275-280 unless a bad day, average pro had better beat me, fer chrissake.

Based upon struggling to hit it 255 in 1981, I think these numbers are real.

Based upon everything I know, if I were Ernie Els (Don't I wish), (Same basic size, even though I am twice his age)     I would expect to hit it 340 if I wanted to.

Just my worthless opinion.

[A_Clay_Man]

The question is nowhere near as important as...........

 How frequently?

[Phil_the_Author]

And with all of those wonderful statistics, Give the USGA a long par four, let them tighten the landing area down to 26-31 yards in width, keep the primary rough at 3 & 1/2 inches in height, and you have them screaming "UNFAIR" that they be required to carry the ball 251 yards to reach the start of the fairway as they were asked to at last years tenth hole of the Black Course.

It is not the distance but the accuracy that sets apart those who are winners on the PGA Tour from those who aren't. Regardless of the length of the drive, if it is in thick rough you are much worse off than a shorter drive in the fairway that is in the fairway.

[TEPaul]

The actual fact is about 591 yards on the drive with the occasionaly 317 yard 5 iron just like Murray said when he was clipping off those daisies before going out to blow up that groundhog. But if for some unknown reason he was wrong they will be there next year! But if that concerns you--don't worry about it the USGA will deny it for you!

[TEPaul]

From above:

"#22:  Gary Hallberg  297.1 for 130 measured drives"

Seriously??

That really is frightening!

Would someone mind telling me what drugs he's taking?

[A_Clay_Man]

I remember back in 73'. I was 13 and one of my dads patients used to grab me by the shoulders and say I'd bet you hit the golf 300 yds. That was 30 years ago.

So why is 325 by a pro out of line?

[Fortson]

I happen to be a club pro and I play a lot of competitive golf.  I keep an ongoing tally of my stats as best as I can without the help of an army of statiticians running around with rulers.  I use a Taylor Made 360 Driver, 8.5 degrees, with a Dynamic Gold X-100 shaft that is 43 3/4 inches.  I have gone back to steel to gain accuracy and have lost about 10 yards off the tee but I am hitting at least an extra 2-3 fariways around which in turn lets me hit more greens.  

My average distance off the tee is 284 yds.  I am 6'3" 190 lbs.  

I was near the top 15% of most of the club pros in my section in driving distance with a graphite shaft but since I went to steel I have gone to about the middle of the pack in distance.  

My point in telling you this is that these are CLUB PROS!!!,  not tour pros.  The average club pro is hitting it about 280 yds!  That is sickening for golf courses everywhere and also puts in prspective the whole men vs women issue in golf.  Put me on a 6500 yrd course or less with LPGA players and I'm in trouble.  Take it to 7000 yds and up and I have every bit of confidence that I'd trounce most of them if not all of them.  It's not that I am better, it's that I am built differently, that's it.  I wish this whole topic of men vs women would go away with everyone realizing that men and women are just made differently, WHICH IS OK!  Neither sex is superior to the other, just different.

Jeff F.

[Brock Peyer]

One thing that I think contributes to the enormous stats is the setup of the courses.  How often do you get the roll that the pros get in so many tournaments?  I also think that they (the networks and tour) inflate the distances because the tour pro are able to cut off a bit extra doglegs and therefore increase the reported distance.  I hope that with this new technology that the networks have to track shots that they could track the "true" distance as the crow flies.  We all know that two guys can hit it the same distance but one can take advantage of the angle and seem a bit stronger since he is closer to the hole.  I realize that the pros bomb it, don't get me wrong, but I think that the tours and networks market it . well also

[Jim Thomas]

There's no way every tour pro can hit the ball 300 yards on command, unless they are getting over 30 yards of roll.  Most of them can carry the ball around 260 yards with an adequate degree of accuracy.  

Woods can carry the ball around 290 yards, and he's usually 30 yards in front of most of his competitors when you watch him at a tournament.

Impressive distances, but Annika hits the ball far enough to compete against Nos. 100 to 175 on tour.

[Jeff Fortson]

Mr. Thomas,

I really think you have never spent much time watching the players on either tour.  Stats mean nothing until you see it in person and play with professional men and women.  I have played with members from every tour on this planet practically and I can vouch for the fact that even some of the longest women I have played with can't get it within 20 yeards of me, and I'm a club pro!  The 100-175 in driving distance on tour might not be long in comparison to Woods and Mickelson but compared to Annika, trust me they're longer.  There might be the anomoly out there but I would bet my years salary, which isn't much =), that if you put Annika on the same tees as all the tour pros 98% of the men would outdrive her.  You know what, that doesn't make her inferior, just made different, as I keep having to say.  Annika is one of the most talented and dominant golfers I have ever seen in a relative sense.  She dominates her sport and competition but would get hammered on the mens tour.  I know a lot of the guys on the PGA Tour and Nationwide Tour and I'd bet my house they'd kick her butt from the same tees over 4 rounds in 30 events.  It is just the flat out reality of the physical world, SORRY!

Jeff Fortson

[John Conley]

The question is nowhere near as important as...........

 How frequently?

Adam:

I thought my post was clear.  Those numbers are averages of all measured drives over the course of a year.  If you assume the favorable and unfavorable conditions balance out, the answer is... all the time.

[John Conley]

There's no way every tour pro can hit the ball 300 yards on command, unless they are getting over 30 yards of roll.  Most of them can carry the ball around 260 yards with an adequate degree of accuracy.  

Woods can carry the ball around 290 yards, and he's usually 30 yards in front of most of his competitors when you watch him at a tournament.

Impressive distances, but Annika hits the ball far enough to compete against Nos. 100 to 175 on tour.

Jim:

I agree with the assertion that Tour players cannot just call up 3 bills under normal conditions at sea level.  Similarly, Annika cannot call up 270, or even 260 without a generous roll.  As for Tiger?  He no longer outdrives his peers by the huge gaps that he used to.  Virtually every other player is using a club that is geared more for length than he does and nearly every young player coming down the pike is also a bomber.

As for your last point, I respectfully disagree that she will ever compete with even shorter than average players on the PGA Tour.

[Jim Thomas]

Jeff:  You may be able to hit your drive 20 yards past Annika's, but can you beat her 50% of the time?  I've watched Tiger Woods extensively, and have even been lucky enough to play with him.  He can hit his drives 30 yards past 90% of the pros on the PGA Tour when he wants to.  I've watched him consistently outdrive Ernie Els, Colin Montgomerie, Jesper Parnivik and other top 20 players by 30 yards.

However, many of those pros can beat Tiger Woods on a given day or week.  Merely being able to hit your drive 30 yards farther than the next pro does not mean that you will beat him 90% of the time.  

All I'm saying is that Annika is good enough to make the top 125.

[John Conley]

Give the USGA a long par four, let them tighten the landing area down to 26-31 yards in width, keep the primary rough at 3 & 1/2 inches in height, and you have them screaming "UNFAIR" that they be required to carry the ball 251 yards to reach the start of the fairway as they were asked to at last years tenth hole of the Black Course.

Phil:

Conditions obviously affect the scores a golfer will shoot.  Also, the carry on the 10th at Bethpage was only in question because there was no adjustment made for the hole playing into a wind.  Contrast that with the decision the PGA of America made on #16 at Hazeltine later in the year.

I think you are missing my point when I started the thread where I offer the Buy.com data as more relevant for comparing the difference between male and female touring professionals.

The course setup on the PGA Tour involves long rough, but not as severe as that encountered in USGA events.  This is one way to explain the often absurdly high scores posted in the U.S. Women's Open.

[JohnV]

This topic came up here a few years ago (as it does every few months.)  At the time, I went back over a three year period checked the driving stats for the players who graduated to the PGA from the Hogan/Nike/buy.com/Nationwide tour (10/year at the time) over a 3 year period.  Of the 30 players, only one increased his driving distance when he moved to the PGA Tour and 25 or so declined at least 5 yards.  Since that post was back in the days of the old discussion software it isn't in the archives, but perhaps I'll do it again with more recent data and see how it comes out.

Also, last year, I was at a Senior/Champions tour even in San Jose and the yardages that were painted on the side of the two measured driving holes did not reflect the reality as seen through a spectator's Bushnell laser.  The signboard behind the tee was 10 yards shorter than the distance painted on the ground so the players were hitting it at least 15 yards shorter than was being recorded.  I don't know if that is true everywhere, but I do know it was true there.  Possibly given the bad weather that week, they moved the tees up and adjusted for it when the posted the numbers.

I have a friend who plays a lot of golf with Billy Mayfair and he told me that Mayfair doesn't hit it anywhere near as long as the tour stats say he does.  Now, that is under different conditions, but it does make one wonder about their numbers.

[Doug Sobieski]

John Conley:

I would agree 10,000% that your average golf fan has no idea how much better the PGA Tour players are than just about any group you could compare them to. But unless fans actually get to play with the best players in the world, it will never compute for them.

Here is an example. You may know Damon Green, who currently works for Scott Hoch. In his prime, Damon was probably considered one of the most consistent money makers on the Space Coast tour. He has won close to 80 mini tour events. As one of the stronger players in Orlando, and as a member at Bay Hill, he was given an exemption into the tournament in the early 90’s. Keep in mind that most people would not be able to tell that he wasn’t a Tour player if they watched him hit balls or actually played with him. In the daily Shoot-Out at Bay Hill, he would rarely shoot over par from the back tees.

Once the gun went off in the tournament, he shot 158 or 159. While discussing it afterward, he told me it wasn’t nerves. It was that the course was SO difficult compared to the set up the rest of the year that it exposed the difference in his game compared to the guys on Tour. Keep in mind that this was around the time that the Hogan tour was just starting, so Central Florida was really AAA ball at that point.

Back in the 80’s, Golf Magazine had an article that tried to give people an idea of how different handicap levels would compete on a US Open set up. It stated that a scratch player would most likely shoot around 90, and I’ve always agreed with that (I’m a PGA Professional, with what I would call average ability compared to my peers). Go to your club and find a professional that typically shoots around par. I’m not talking about a guy that may be one of the best players in the Section, but a guy that will typically beat the membership on a daily basis. He would have to play well in the Open to break 90. If you have any doubts, look at the number of world-class players that shoot in the 80’s in an Open. Or look at the PGA Championship and look at some of the highest scores. These guys at the bottom are among the best playing club professionals in the country!!!!!

Another short example. Decent mini-tour player. Shoots 63 at Bay Hill and Lake Nona in the same week. Neither is what I’d call an easy golf course. You’ve never heard of him and never will.

“These guys are good” in no way conveys how good they really are.

Sobe

[J_McKenzie]

Our company, Love Golf Design, is currently renovating Forest Oaks Country Club in Greensboro, N.C., site of the Chrysler Classic of Greensboro.  I was with Davis Love and his brother Mark during their last site visit and they are using 285 yards as a carry number for level or slightly uphill tee shots and 300 yards for downhill tee shots.  These yardages are based on the "longer hitters".  The scary thing is that just about every young player coming to the tour now fits in that category (Howell, Baddeley, Sergio, etc.).

[John_Conley]

Sobe:

Didn't Rina Ritson's son shoot 58-62 at Disney in the late 80s?  Don't know if it was just messing around or in a mini-tour event.  I know he had the course record at Grenelefe West of 64, which (to me) is impossible to fathom on a course 7340 yards.

(Ronnie McCann?)

[Doug Sobieski]

John:

I don't remember the facts, but that rings a bell with me. By the way, when Ronnie did qualify for the PGA Tour one year (his only year doing so, 1989 or 1990 I believe), the sum total of cuts made was zero. I think that speaks volumes.

Remind me to tell you the story of when I was helping officiate 2nd stage at Grenelefe West and Ronnie had me substantiate that a guy was cheating. The guy made it through and has since played at least one year on the Nike/Buy.com/Nationwide.

Sobe

[JohnV]

Ok, I went and did the research.

For 2000 buy.com graduates, the average drive on the buy.com tour was 284.0 and in 2001 on the PGA Tour was 278.7 for a loss of 5.3 yards.  One player, David Berganio, Jr. hit it one yard further on the PGA tour, while the other 14 hit it shorter.  The biggest drop was Jeff Gallagher who dropped 21.3 yards.  All the rest dropped less than 10 yards.

For the 2001 graduates the difference was even more substantial.  They averaged 290.2 on the buy.com and 280.3 on the PGA Tour the next year for a difference of 9.9 yards.  All 15 players hit it shorter on the PGA Tour.  The smallest differential was 1.8 yard loss for Pat Bates, while the largest was 16.1 yards for Richard Zokol.  In all, 9 of the 15 players lost more than 10 yards in distance.

Interestingly all the players that I saw who played both tours in the year they graduated from the buy.com hit it shorter on the the PGA Tour than they did on the buy.com IN THE SAME YEAR.  So it seems that , either the PGA Tour is playing softer courses or the guys scale it back when the get there or the measurements on the buy.com tour are inflated or there is some other reason I'm not thinking of.

[A_Clay_Man]

John Conley- You misunderstood my reference but even using your definition of 'all the time' is skeptical at best.

What I meant is that golf is scored by how many, not how far.

JohnV- These guys are good... at making money, so the unconfirmed stats aren't reliable for 'real' quantitative analysis.
Who among us actually thinks it's the ball that made it go so far? It was your swing and the purity of how you hit it. Sure, the ball is straighter, the club is better, but your knowledge, application and execution of the golf swing is what makes it go deep. Just MHO

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