[Tom_Doak]

John K asked elsewhere how many of the Gourmet's Choice might be different were the book republished today.  Actually, he said it would be a good discussion topic for someone ... but since it's my list I thought I would tackle it first.

First of all, a clarification:  the 31 changed so much between the first edition and the Sleeping Bear Press edition because I changed the rules to make myself include the work of 31 different architects.  If I struck down that rule it would be very different again, but I'm staying politically correct.

Yes, Pacific Dunes would replace Stonewall as my own first choice.  It might change again in a couple of years.

Cabo del Sol has replaced Desert Highlands as my favorite Jack Nicklaus design, but I'm not sure I would replace it in The Gourmet's Choice, because I wanted to include one desert golf course and Desert Highlands was the forerunner.  [Though I have not seen it in years, and I understand the greens are different now.]

Commonwealth would be hanging by a thread as my Sand Belt representative.  Maybe I'd cheat and call Kingston Heath a Soutar/Morcom design so I could use it.

Shadow Creek would still be my choice for Mr. Fazio.  Sand Hills would still be the one for Coore & Crenshaw.

Camargo [or some other Raynor course] would probably replace The Creek, since people keep reminding me that C.B. Macdonald was involved at The Creek.  Or maybe I wouldn't include a Raynor course at all, so I could include something by another modern architect.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ah ha, Tom! You just set yourself up for an interesting question... that I presume you'll decline to answer. Or hopefully not.

If you had a "Gourmet's Choice" for, say, five additional contemporary golf architects, which architects would they be [we already have a Nicklaus, Fazio, and Coore choice]? And, of course, which courses?  

[cary lichtenstein]

Tom:

I think we would all like to see 2 lists:

31 best US without regard to political correctness

31 world best "           "          "                "

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I second Cary on that!

[Mike Nuzzo]

Have some courses greatly improved or become tarnished since your viewing?
How much better is NGLA than '95? Oakmont since '94?
Was it a proximity issue that kept Shinney off, therefore also keeping a Kingsbarns off? (I've never seen Kingsbarns - a potential modern architect)
Forrest Highlands? Does the teams work still stand up over time and merit exclusion of another architects?
Is Casa still Pete's best work, or was it an island inclusion? (how do The Golf Club, new Kiawah or Whistling Straits compare)
Maybe it's time to give that New Mexican state it's due...
I wish I knew about all those English courses.
Cheers

P.S. Banff and Jasper would be a sure bet as a place to bring a friend.

[JakaB]

This thread proves that you never know who might read what you write on this site....but...come on guys....Doak made it very clear that he never intended the 31 Flavors to be the 31 best courses in the world...What would be great would be if he were to post the first edition list along side the Sleeping Bear edition for discussion purposes.....I can't because I'm not exactly sure what the little c with a circle around it really means...or not..

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:  I cannot answer your question because I'm unqualified.  I really haven't seen a lot of the courses which would be legitimate candidates for the "best work of five other modern architects."  Among those courses I haven't seen:  Applebrook, Barona Creek, Black Mesa, Bull's Bay, Ellerton, Giant's Ridge, and Pronghorn, or anything by Rod Whitman.  To name just a few.

I haven't seen them for the same reason none of their architects have been to Barnbougle Dunes ... we're traveling in different circles.  Also, unfortunately for me, anytime I do go see a newer course I'm asked to comment, but no matter what I say, it will be taken out of context because I am a competing architect.

Mike N.:  The reasons for my 31 selections vary.  Shinnecock, like Pebble Beach, was not excluded for "proximity" reasons but because I felt I had nothing original to say about it ... it's already well covered.  I do think both of them are among the best courses in the world.  Teeth of the Dog, in my opinion, is still Pete Dye's best work, and still much less well known than it should be.

John K:  I will be glad to list the original 31 flavors tomorrow when I'm close to a copy of the book.

[Jeff_Mingay]

That's understandable, Tom.

I, too, am unqualified. I tend to gravitate to older golf courses when travelling myself, and as a result, haven't seen much modern work either.

Perhaps I should change my habits    

[ian]

Jeff,

I always try catch new and old together on each golf course trip. I enjoy some of the contrast.

It has lead me to seek out High Point, French Creek, Barona Creek, Rustic Canyon, among others. There is some really great modern work being done by quite a few people.


Tom,

There are no revisions required to your 31 flavours, it worked very well then, and still reads well now (including The Creek).

My question would come from the gazetter. I would love to know any new additions to those lists, or special holes not mentioned previously.

Courses not reviewed at that time that were extremely good.

[Jeff_Mingay]

You've caught me in a fib, Ian. 'Cause I've seen High Pointe (several times) and French Creek! I was, in fact, exaggerating a bit. But my interest in new courses, perhaps mistakenly, is still limited in comparison to the older, more natural stuff out there still to be seen.

[Shane Gurnett]

What date was applicable to the original 31 choices?

[Thomas_Brown]

Tom - Restorations(*Changes*) to Pinehurst & Bethpage haven't swayed you?

[Bill Gayne]

Some immediate thoughts for additions (I have no clue as to who would come off the list):

1. Kyle Phillips and Kingsbarn.
2. Greg Norman and Moonah Course (I haven't seen or played but based on comments of others)
3. Mike Stranz and Tobacco Road
4. Eddie Hackett and Waterville or Carne.
5. No RTJ on the original list. Limited great but a lot of very good work and has a had huge impact in the post WWII period. Maybe Peachtree or The Dunes.

[JakaB]

To think Bethpage would ever make the list shows a complete lack of understanding of the choices..of Doak...and of Tillie..

[Tom_Doak]

Bill G:  If I were to pick a Mike Strantz course, of the four I've seen, I'd pick Caledonia.  Also, I didn't realize until after I had made my final selections, that I had not picked a course by Robert Trent Jones, Sr. [or Jr., or Rees!].  It's not that I don't think they've done a lot of good work, but I've never fallen in love with one of their courses.

John K.:  You're right on, Bethpage would never be ahead of SFGC in my book ... and that was before we'd worked at SFGC.

The original 31 are as follows.  Remember, as the introduction says -- "perhaps not the best golf courses in the world, but among the first I would take a good friend to see."

Still in (18):  The Addington, Ballybunion, Casa de Campo, Crystal Downs, Royal Dornoch, Merion, Muirfield, The National Golf Links of America, North Berwick, Pine Valley, Prairie Dunes, Riviera, Rye, St. Andrews, St. Enodoc, San Francisco GC, Westward Ho!, Woodhall Spa

Removed because I picked another course by the same architect (14):  Cruden Bay, Cypress Point, High Pointe, Lahinch, Long Cove, Machrihanish, Royal Melbourne, Royal County Down, Pennard, Royal Portrush, Royal St. George's, Swinley Forest, and a "combined" entry for Whitinsville and Royal Worlington & Newmarket.

I've been back to three of the latter this year, and still have strong feelings for each of them.

[JakaB]

Tom,

Were you in the DRS in 88 when you didn't include Pinehurst in the choices and had it a 9 instead of the 10 it currently enjoys.....oh....and do you buy the current line of crap that the greens are really not of his hand and just the result of years of topdressing...or what.

[JakaB]

I apologize if the above sounds insulting....that is why I didn't change it with a modification.   I do like the balance of Pinehurst II being in the choices with a 10 againsts your comments on Ross in general.....sorry.

[Tom_Doak]

John, I think I'm pretty much "on the record" as a big admirer of Pinehurst No. 2.  I've only seen it from 1975-present and I don't think the greens contours have changed much in that period.  Anything else would be speculation on my part.

If there was a Donald Ross Society in 1988, I was in it back then, because I signed up pretty early.  I stopped paying dues in the mid-1990's because I wasn't sure I agreed with their agenda, and am no longer a member.

[Joel_Stewart]

This thread is over 10 years old and with the new book(s) and many new golf courses it may be a great topic for speculation.

What courses should be added to the Gourmets Choice?

Pinehurst, LACC?

[Ronald Montesano]

Has there ever been a GCA Brethren Gourmet's Choice? I think we could decide on 31 architects and give our own Gourmet's Choice on a thread. What say ye?

[Tom_Doak]

This thread is over 10 years old and with the new book(s) and many new golf courses it may be a great topic for speculation.

What courses should be added to the Gourmets Choice?

Pinehurst, LACC?

Good timing, Joel.  I am actually struggling this week to try and choose the 18 courses that will be in The Gourmet's Choice for Volume 2, and for Volume 3.

Originally I thought I would just make the restriction of one course per architect PER VOLUME, so that I could include a couple of my own courses and a couple from Ross or MacKenzie or others.  But the more I look at the list of candidates, the more I think I should keep it to one selection per architect for BOTH "Americas" books, even though there are some agonizing choices to make.

I am not looking for a popular vote on this subject, though.  It's up to me and Ran and Darius and Masa to decide which courses inspire us to write.

PS  Pinehurst #2 was in the Gourmet's Choice in the last edition.  But both Ran and Darius have volunteered that they'd like to write up different Donald Ross courses if I let them.

PPS to Ron:  I have always made a list of courses first, and then limited myself to only using one course per architect.  I'm not trying to highlight architects, so much as to not play favorites.  My list of candidate courses for North & South America includes the work of 61 different architects (!) so it would be silly to let a few dominate the list.

[Ronald Montesano]

PPS to Ron:  I have always made a list of courses first, and then limited myself to only using one course per architect.  I'm not trying to highlight architects, so much as to not play favorites.  My list of candidate courses for North & South America includes the work of 61 different architects (!) so it would be silly to let a few dominate the list.

This is good to note. I'm going to add it to my concurrent thread. Thank you, Tom. Good luck in the paring process.

[Gary Sato]

This thread is over 10 years old and with the new book(s) and many new golf courses it may be a great topic for speculation.

What courses should be added to the Gourmets Choice?

Pinehurst, LACC?

Originally I thought I would just make the restriction of one course per architect PER VOLUME, so that I could include a couple of my own courses and a couple from Ross or MacKenzie or others.  But the more I look at the list of candidates, the more I think I should keep it to one selection per architect for BOTH "Americas" books, even though there are some agonizing choices to make.

Why limit or handcuff yourself?  The best are still the best (or your favorites) and your risk inserting a course in only because another architect already has one selected.

[John Butler]

Tom,

The Donald Ross Society began in 1989, we just celebrated our 25th with an outing in Pinehurst.  Check out our website www.donaldross.org.  We don't have a particular agenda other than providing an opportunity for members to experience Ross courses on several outings a year at the generous invitation of those clubs, aiding in course restoration efforts, and, through our foundation, contributing significantly to the Tufts Archives whose executive director Audrey Moriarty was very helpful to Coore & Crenshaw on #2.  It's a fun, interesting group.

[Matthew Mollica]

Commonwealth would be hanging by a thread as my Sand Belt representative.  Maybe I'd cheat and call Kingston Heath a Soutar/Morcom design so I could use it.

Tom, with the passage of a decade or more, and greater understanding of MacKenzie's role at Kingston Heath, do you view the course today as primarily a Soutar / Morcom work ?

MM

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