[A.G._Crockett]

Last weekend, in our club championship, we suffered through a bizarre set of pin locations on Sunday.  The Saturday pins had been fine, with the 6 easy, 6 medium, and 6 difficult formula pretty much intact.  Sunday was another story, with (by my personal count) 12 difficult pins, 2 that were marginally medium, and the other 4 in the medium to easy range.  None were "easy."  Lower flights struggled, upper flights were frustrated, and nobody had much fun.

We have a relatively inexperienced pro, and I want to be constructive in my criticism(s), so I am trying to put together a set of pin locations for a two-day flighted tournament.  Other than the general 6-6-6 formula, does anybody have any other philosopical guidelines that would be helpful to me?  For instance, on the last par 5, I'd like to see the possibility of a three in play on Sunday, while on 18, I'd like to see emphasis on a quality up-and-down opportunity.

Thoughts, or past experiences?  BTW, please don't be distracted by wondering how this happened; I'm just trying to offer a viable alternative to the club for next year.  Thanks in advance!

[TEPaul]

A.G.

I know I probably shouldn't say this but I'd like to see a course use 18 tough pins for something like a club championship!

Why? Simply because I feel 18 tough but doable pins are so much more strategic to approach shots and definitely to playing and recovering on and around greens and if a course is ever going to use really tough pins those playing in the club championship should be the ones to use them on---they're supposed to be the best in the club and that definitely includes thinking well, not just ball striking.

[Hunt]

I look at making sure all the Par 3's require a different club in your hand so be thinking of tee box and pin locations.

Another suggestion is to make sure you are balancing back-middle-front pin locations along with left-middle-right evenly.

You certainly don't want a dominance of back left or front right throughout the course set up.

In a multi day event, I like to give a different look by moving tee boxes as well offering up some risk-reward shots you mention. A good shot at eagle on a Par 5 one day with a much more difficult pin the next.

We have a Par 4 where one day I placed the Tee Box at 275  from the middle of the green. Lots of guys were thinking 2 or 3. Some got the easy 3 but far more found trouble carding 5 or 6.  

Green speeds play into consideration. We have lots of undulation so 9.5-10 run well and members aren't 4-5 jacking all day.

[Jim_Kennedy]

A.G.
I also favor the harder locations, the ones that demand creativity. There probably aren't any spots that your fellow members haven't seen before anyway.

If you want to lessen the impact hand out location sheets a couple of weeks before the event.

[Patrick_Mucci]

AG,

If the pins were on the greens, and there was no appreciable change in slope within 3 feet of the hole, I don't see a problem.  It's the same for everyone.

[peter_p]

Don't see much of a problem with the setup, assuming their wasn't an imbalance. I'd go to easy-medium easy on pace-of-play bottleneck holes, such as early par 3s.

[A.G._Crockett]

Hunt,
Thanks for those thoughts; that's the kind of stuff I'm looking for exactly.  I'd appreciate any other thoughts that occur to you.

Trust me when I tell you that this isn't whining about tough pins or my score.  I'm not willing to tell the entire story, but suffice it to say that my concern is to find a constructive way to be, on the one hand, critical of what we had last Sunday, and on the other, offer an alternative.

I will tell you that I have played over 800 rounds on the golf course, and there were 4 pins I have NEVER seen.  One pin was recut before play started, one was changed DURING play (done between flights to more or less be fair), and one was puttable ONLY from off the green.  That's 7 of the 18, if that gives you a flavor! Just take my word for that part, and don't tell me that you think it should be tough, etc.  So do I!  This was something else entirely; it was sloppy, lazy, etc., but I'm trying to help.  

If you have suggestions or thoughts about how people who are good at course setup go about it, I'd REALLY, REALLY, REALLY appreciate the help!  If you want to tell me that you think its "the same for everyone" or other such banalities, without having ever seen the course, much less the setup I'm talking about, then wait for another thread.

[Pat K]

Oh, where to start. First, why is the pro doing the hole locations? Does he set them daily? It seems from your description of the pins that it may have been inappropriate. Did he get any guidance from the golf committee or chairman?
A sensible thing to do would be to have the person who does the daily set up do the tournament pins. For special events some guidance from the committee would help ensure the desired product is delivered. Don't hang the guy after the fact without any prior discussion on what was desired beforehand.
      I've been setting up golf courses for 30 years now and this 6-6-6 set up mentality should be  forgotten about. To get 3 people to agree on what is easy or hard or medium is impossible. On an old course in particular you need to be more specific. Some greens only have hard, harder and hardest, or easy........
    I would say that to get more enjoyment from future tournaments you need to have a few beers with the pro and the greenkeeper and the golf committee and talk about set up in a positive manner. Talk about what you like. Then the employee may be able to deliver.

[Doug Sobieski]

A.G.:

As far as balancing difficulty over the days of an event, the PGA Tour uses the following guideline in some way, if I recall correctly.

Prior to the event, four hole locations are identified, and ranked with 1 being the easiest, and 4 being the most difficult (of course they take care to make sure that all the 4's aren't left, or all the 1's right, etc.). So on each green, the hole locations total 10 (1+2+3+4). Over 18 holes, this is 180, so for each day they try to maintain an overall cumulative number of 45 (180/4).

This may not help you much for a two day event, but it may give you some insight into how balance is achieved at the Tour level.

All the best,

Doug

[Don_Mahaffey]

I've set-up for numerous club events, state amateur competitions and a couple of PGA tour and USGA qualifiers. My thoughts on the issue,

1. No matter how you set it up someone is going to bitch, but rarely do the players who finish well complain. Don't take responsibility for the set-up if your thin skinned, and try your best not to complain if you play in an event. I really don't think I've ever seen anything but golf skill determine a winner, it's just hard to admit we're less skilled then the other guy most of the time.

2. Multiple day events are easier then one day events because you can shake things up. In multiple day events try and resist the urge to save all the tough hole locations for the last day.

3. Although balance is important, I think it's key not to get hung up on the front, middle, back, left, middle, right deal. Almost all greens have some interesting hole locations, some are hard to get to from the air, some from the ground. Some are hard to hit approaches to but easy to putt and some are just the opposite. There's a lot more to balance then the old 6-6-6 deal.

4. If you really want to test the players, try and bring trajectory into the equation. Of course you need firm greens, but some holes cut close to bunkers requiring a precise aerial attack and some utilizing little shelves and depressions where a ground attack is needed to get close is part of a good set-up IMO.

5. In multi day events shake up the yardages, especially on Par 3's. Everyone's goal is always requiring different clubs on each par 3, but that's tough to do when you factor in wind and elevation, I like to vary the yardage, but I'm more interested in making sure the hole will play different each day. A back tee with a back pin followed by moving the tee up and tucking the pin up front can result in a 50 yard difference from one day to the next. A five iron one day to a nine the next is OK in my book as long as the shot required is legit.

6. I've worked at 7 golf courses in my life. There is no way that the pro knew the course better then the supt at any of them. Working together is probably the best approach, but leaving the supt out of the equation is like leaving the chef out of the menu planning for a big banquet.

[Joe Hancock]

6. I've worked at 7 golf courses in my life. There is no way that the pro knew the course better then the supt at any of them. Working together is probably the best approach, but leaving the supt out of the equation is like leaving the chef out of the menu planning for a big banquet.

Don,

Eloquent post, but it needs to be said that your understanding of the game is above average for superintendents, as well as most other folks.

Good thoughts.

Joe

[Patrick_Mucci]

AG Crockett,

It's not rocket science, it's basic common sense combined with an understanding of the field, the architecture and the resultant approach shots, recoveries and putts.

And, I've done it at numberous levels.

You can call it banal, but that would just be inexperience talking.

[A.G._Crockett]

Thanks, gentlemen, for the ideas.

Patrick,
I haven't set pins, and that IS inexperience. Duh...
If you have, then how about something constructive about how YOU do it?  Is that so much to ask?  THAT might actually be helpful!

[Patrick_Mucci]

AG Crockett,

You're asking for a general statement, a blanket formula that would apply to all situations when the process is hole, weather and agronomically specific.

In my estimation, like so many of those books entitled,
"_______ for Dummies", the 6,6,6 formula was meant to simplify the process in a general sense, for local clubs.  
It is neither a rule nor a cast in concrete guideline.

Let me ask you this.

If you had schematic dart boards in the shape of all of your greens, and a chimp threw darts at them, and where the dart landed you set the pin, allowing for appreciable slope and buffer, could you go wrong ?

Just think of yourself as an enlightened troglodyte  

Oh, one more thing, when you go to set the pins, take some balls and a putter with you.

[JohnV]

AG,  Having setup hundreds of courses for events, I can say that many of the suggestions given were good.  I don't like it when the person in charge (pro, super, chairman of the Rules Committee) uses the 18 hardest locations on the final round as Tom Paul seems to.  I think a good mix between the two days would be good.  I also think that it is a good idea to have a few easier hole locations where birdies can be made.  After all the best players are better at making birdies, just as they are better at saving par at hard hole locations.  It gives them a chance to get back the one or two shots they might have lost on the tough ones.

Some guidelines I use are:

1) Try to balance left and right pretty closely in order to not favor the player who hits a draw vs the one who fades.  It also requires everyone to work the ball both ways.  I don't worry until it gets above 11-7 on one side.  The superintendent at a course recently gave me a set of hole locations that had 13 left and 5 right.  I moved 3 just to balance it some.

2) I don't worry about balance in depth, but I do try to make sure that front hole locations be where a player hitting the correct shot in can stop the ball.  Putting a hole 5 paces behind a bunker on a firm green where a 3-iron is required not good.  Putting it 5 paces on when you can run it up is ok.  But, that being said, if you can run it up to one or the other side and have a 15-20 footer, I'll put it behind that bunker to test the brains of the player.  In other words, consider the architecture of the hole and how the good/smart player can approach it.

3) Consider the abilities of the field.   Putting holes 3 and 4 paces from the edge with a severe drop off to the side might be fine for the PGA Tour, but the average club player can't handle it and it will slow up play.

4) Try to play some visual games on the players.  If you have a green where you can put the hole behind a bunker and make it look much scarier than it is, it works for me.  Also, put a hole right in the middle of a green, but make it so that missing to one side leaves a really tough putt.  The average player sees that one and goes right at it without considering which side to miss it.  The good player thinks about that.

6-6-6 is fine, but everyone's definition of hard/medium/easy differs so I don't try to worry about it much.   But in setting up a multi-day event I try to do what Doug mentioned about the points system.

[TEPaul]

To get a good idea for how pins are set-up we probably couldn't have a better source of info than JohnV. Afterall that's part of what he does.

I've only watched it being done in tournament set-ups for things like GAP and Pa State events, and I've never really been part of the process. When I officiate I do go out there early with a couple of balls and a putter and check out the settings to make sure they really do conform to our pin sheets but at that point most all of them are set anyway and can't really be changed unless there's some real anomalie or specific problem.

I have a real ball going out there early in the morning ahead of the tournament and spending sometimes ten or fifteen minutes per green putting from all over the place to the day's pins!

[Ken Fry]

To Don Mahaffey and Pat K,

It sounds like you've both been in the business for a while.  Certainly you pull information from your years of experience, an invaluable tool.

I've been at courses where the supt. doesn't even play golf.  How in the world will he know what are good and bad pin locations if he doesn't play the surfaces he maintains?

At other facilities, I've set pins, the supt. has set pins, but the best outcomes have been collaborations.  If you haven't had this type of relationship with your pro, that's unfortunate.  If the pro is either ill informed or not interested, that again is unfortunate.

Your advice to AG is certainly valid, but there are better situations that exist out there than apparently you've experienced.

[Don_Mahaffey]

KFry,
Actually I've been fortunate to work with some very good golf professionals. I did write that working together, golf pro and supt, is the best approach.

John,
I guess the only place I disagree is with your feeling that every pin should be "fair" judging from your comment that you would not tuck a pin behind a bunker where a long iron is probably needed to get to the green. IMO, that approach favors the bomber and takes the short hitter out of the equation. Players that think they should be able to hit it close to every flag need to be punished

[A.G._Crockett]

KFry,
As a bit of history, we had a head pro for a number of years who set up the course for tournaments, and was excellent at it.  The membership had come to take for granted that the job would be done well, I think.  He put a lot of time and thought into the process, and still played competitively and was very serious about it. (BTW, it is a non-equity club, and there is no Greens Committee as such, though the staff might be amenable to someone from the member's association to be involved.  I don't know that the question has been asked.)

That pro left a little over a year ago, and the new guy, who moved up from an assistant's position, delegated the setup to the greenskeeping staff this year, after doing it himself last year.  I think he took some serious heat last year, and just decided to opt out; in any event, the two days were handled by two members of the greenskeeping staff.  One did a very acceptable job (Sat.), the other was a disaster (Sun.).  Again, all I want to do is offer something constructive instead of just more bitching and moaning to whomever might end up setting up the course next year.  

I've read some good stuff here from some really experienced and thoughtful sources.  Thanks!

[LenBum]

When picking hole locations for tournaments at Shinnecock Hills the wind direction, green firmness and greenspeed are the major factors. Right now we are in the middle of our Labor day Four Ball Member/Guest. I must say that I could pick 18 benign hole locations and believe me no one would complain about them being too easy. Well, maybe Mark Michaud. He's a pain in the ass when it comes to hole locations. "Make them cry"! is what he usually says. Which is why I was a little shocked this morning when he said to be gentle. He saw the east wind forcast too. Today was especially challenging. With the greenspeeds around 12 and an east wind forcast to blow 15-25, a number of greens were tough to pick locations for. 9 and 18 being the most difficult. An east wind blows back to front downhill on those two. The fronts of those greens couldn't be used since most everyone would end up above the hole putting downhill and downwind. When in doubt I'll pick an easier location simply because the course usually defends itself pretty well. This year proved more difficult than in years past. With the damage to the greens from the US Open, usable hole locations were minimal in events just after the Open. But in the past 2 months the greens have almost fully recovered and more locations were available. The 17th is a 170 yard par 3 that played downwind. I put the hole in the back thinking it would be slightly easier to get to. One of my players hit 8 iron. He just carried the traps on the left landing a good 15 yards short of the flag. He ended up 10 yards over. Maybe tomorrow I'll put every one right in the middle and see if anyone notices. It would make for a funny looking pinsheet............

[rgkeller]

If "fairness" is a concept you desire to pursue, I would suggest that half the hole locations placed near edges be on the right of the green and half on the left.

[TEPaul]

"I must say that I could pick 18 benign hole locations and believe me no one would complain about them being too easy. Well, maybe Mark Michaud. He's a pain in the ass when it comes to hole locations. "Make them cry"! is what he usually says. Which is why I was a little shocked this morning when he said to be gentle."

LenBum:

Wayne Morrison and I had a ball meeting with and getting to know Mark Michaud last year and this year in and around the US Open---and yes, I did get that feeling that Mark sort of liked the idea of "Make them cry!" on the greens.

If I were the Green Chairman of Shinnecock, I'll guarantee you I'd have complete and utter trust in Mark Michaud in every way imaginable with that golf course. But if I were the Green Chairman of Shinnecock I'd have told Mark when he got there whenever I see you I'd like to see you with a putter in your hand or in your cart nearby--and that within a year or two I expect you to know the pinnability, puttability and playability, of every single one of these greens and every single part of every one of these greens better than anyone in the World.

[Peter Galea]

Three inviolate rules of golf.

1. Play the ball as it lies.

2. Play the course as you find it.

3. When neither of those is possible, do what's fair.

[LenBum]

TEPaul


Mark doesn't always carry his putter. Just tournament time. I do the hole locations for tournaments because it's easier for me to mark them and have the pinsheets on the first tee by 8am.  The alternative would be to mark them the day before. With wind conditions being so important location issues could arise. We've tried just about everything. This seems to work best. I only do it for tournaments and we only have 4 that are important enough for pinsheets.

[TEPaul]

"I do the hole locations for tournaments ."

LenBum:

In that case YOU should carry your putter and 2-3 balls at all times and become more familiar with those greens and everything about them than anyone else in the world!  

Frankly, I can't imagine much that'd be more fun than attempting to become completely familar with all things about the greens of Shinnecock by testing pin locations!

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