[A.G._Crockett]

JNC_Lyon,
If I understand the criteria, we're talking about the back tees.  Would the Ocean Course fit this description?  I love the golf course, but it doesn't have the highest slope in the U.S. for nothing!

[JNC Lyon]

A. G._Crockett:

I stand corrected. The course would certainly not be fun for me from the tips! I was thinking of the course in the context of where I played it, which is from the 6,100 yard tees.

[THuckaby2]

I think I know what Pat is trying to get at, but really isn't this just a request for some courses with high course ratings and relatively low slopes?  I've always thought such would make for the perfect golf course.  We've bandied this about before here also and there were many good candidates mentioned.  There's a not-so-well-known one here in CA called Monarch Bay that fits the bill - I think even for high 'cappers it can be great fun from the tips, and it's also darn fun for the scratches as well because it ain't easy and requires a bit of thought.

Actually my home course Santa Teresa fits this bill.. though I find it more fun from the whites because the par fives are all reachable.  From the tips, they all become three-shotters no matter what, which for me isn't quite as fun.  But it won't kill anyone from the tips, yet is pretty tough for the scratch to score on.

A laundry list of pretty much every course generally considered "great" would fit here also.  Not many are SO tough from the tips as to lose greatness.

TH

[Donnie Beck]

I think you would have to add Newport to that list. By far one of the funnest places I have ever played!

[Gary_Nelson]

I'd nominate Augusta National into the fun category from the back tees.  No forced carries off the tee, wide open spaces, minimal rough, loads of fun playing the wild contours on the greens.

A hacker playing the back tees will certainly want to head over to #1 after putting out on #18.

[THuckaby2]

Every golf course can be fun - that's my mantra here.

But at some, the fun comes more easily than at others.

And shivas, your brief diatribe there   just illustrates the different ways people have of looking at golf courses.  See, I get beat up WAY too much in real life, at my job, by my wife, by my kids, by the soccer parents I have to kow-tow to, etc. such that when it comes to golf, "challenge" is about #8 on the list of things I am looking for these days.  Given I have zero time for practice, it's hard enough just making solid contact - I don't need the course to rub it in how much I suck.  Oh, a course that's too easy does get boring, but not the first time, that's for sure!  But a course that's too hard, well... to me grinding out 2irons and 3woods into greens and never making any pars or birdies seems just too much like work.  Of course that CAN be fun also, but that's gonna depend on the people I'm with, scenery, etc.  So for me, any course that allows a reasonable chance of success, while still being sporting and making me think, will always be fun.  Courses that are "challenges"?  OK some times, but a little goes a long way.

Yes, we can look at this differently, can't we?

TH

[Cliff Hamm]

Recently played Sugarloaf - not fun.  I'll take Cape Arundel from the tips anyday and always enjoy it.

Cliff

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I've visited courses knowing I had to write something positive about them (local pr, tourist publicity etc).  I have panicked once or twice as dull hole has succeeded dull hole, but in the end I invariably find somthing positive to say.  It just depends how you look at things, what you are looking for and whether you want to find it....

[Craig Disher]

Pat,
Pinehurst #2 has to be near the top. For even the shortest hitters - fairly decent skills are a must, however - the course is a blast from the back. I consider it a victory when I reach #4 from the middle tees but I still can't wait to play it, even from the back.

Even better - from #18, you only have to walk a few yards to be back on the 1st tee!

[THuckaby2]

See, for me, if I'm going to expend valuable marital capital or ditch out of work, its' no fun at all to go play some super easy course that doesn't let me enjoy the fun of conquering a hole that actually requires great shots to get that birdie.  

You know what pisses me off?  Playing some super easy course and playing bad.  I can handle a smooth 90 at Medinah or whatever.  What I can't handle is shooting 80 at some course I ought to tear up because my game stinks.  

So isn't this odd -- you don't want to shoot 90 on a hard course because it reminds you that you stink.  I don't want to shoot 80 on an easy course because it reminds me that I stink.  By extrapolation, if you shoot 68 at some cupcake Rancho Piece O' Cakeo , you probably get a kick out of that.  I get a kick out of holding it together and breaking 80 at Medinah or Olympia Fields or Butler while my buddies are making doubles all day.  I revel in their pain, and that's good enough for me, sick bastard that I am!  

I believe we have the same marital capital issues, and similar work issues, such that getting the most out of our golf course time is vitally important.

But it is interesting at how differently we look at this.  See, I sure as hell don't revel in the pain of others... oh man, to me there is nothing worse than seeing others beaten down by the course or their games or both, to the extent that I turn away so I don't have to watch.  I've been there too many times myself and it's not much fun.  Perhaps I have way too much empathy, and that's another reason I've never gotten really good at this game... lack of competitive killer instinct... but I digress.

So no, I don't want to or have to shoot 68 at a podunk executive course to have fun.  Remember what I said above - too easy gets boring also.  But I would take that over a parade of 2irons and 3woods into greens, a parade of brutally hard chips and putts, such that success by any measure requires FAR too much GRINDING, and I know you know what the term means.  I have done way way way too much grinding in my years of competitive golf as it is, and I do way way way too much of that in real life... so grinding on the golf course?  As I say, a little goes a long way.  

It can be fun - and my little club championship story is a good example of that - but just a few times a year is enough for me there.

Golf fun?  Make the course give me, and everyone else, a reasonable chance at success.  I am a sick bastard in terms of my addiction to this game, but not in terms of wanting to see myself, or others, suffer.

I want everyone to do well!  I mean that, in all sincerity.

But of course, your admission there does illustrate with perfect clarity why you and I are gonna see this issue differently.

You take Medinah, I'll take Shoreacres (never having played either, trying to put it in your terms).  Or in my terms, I'll take Cypress and you can have Spyglass.

TH

[Wayne_Freedman]

Dave,

That's an admirable perspective. It's pure.

Sometimes, however, I want to score well on an easy course just so I can spend a week deluding myself.

As for the rest of this topic...
let's resume our thinly-veiled exercise in, 'Obscure courses I've played and you haven't, so there'.

[THuckaby2]

Wayne - this could get into that type of exercise.  I for one am trying to stay away from that, my example to Shivas notwithstanding!

As for delusions, well... no great score or match play success is ever gonna make me think I'm that good.  I've seen way too many truly good players to get too deluded.  Still, it is fun to have some success... just keeping it relative!

TH

[Wayne_Freedman]

Tom,

Yes, which explains why, after work, I will be en-route to the
'Whistling Stick at Old Fork Meadow #2'  miniature golf couse in Pointe Pleasant, near Pheasantsville, just off the frontage road to the King's Cairn Memorial Highway,  where last week I shot a miraculous, 3-under, 48, on a track rated at 51.4.

It made me feel real good.

Been there?

[Mark Brown]

I totally agree that fun should be an important factor, but the best course ratings are achieved when the rater plays from set of tees that enables him to play the course the way the architect intended it to play -- and rarely for us is that the back tees.

How about starting over with a new thread?

[JNC Lyon]

From scanning the archives, it seems like Fernandina Beach Muni might be a candidate for this list.

[Phil_the_Author]

I recently had the pleasure of playing Bethpage Black from the tips and it convinced me once again of what makes a challenging course fun when playing it that long - those you are playing with!

Ask Slapper about his all world par from the bunkers on 18 after he put his drive in the bunker. It was for all the money!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Brown,

Feel free to start a new thread any time you wish.

If a course rater only plays from one set of tees, say the middle tees, how is he qualified to rate the golf course from the championship tees ?

Mike Cirba,

No, my point was that the clubs I named are both challenging and FUN to play, once, or day in and day out, and that the rankings, TV and the preponderance of golfers seem to have gone in the direction of difficulty as being the primary criterion for establishing the relative worth of a golf course.

Donnie Beck,

I had a lapse in memory, certainly Newport belongs on my list of golf courses that present a reasonable challenge, yet are FUN to play.

Gary Nelson,

Have you ever played ANGC from the tips ?
I'd have to disagree with you.
It may be a rare and great experience, but FUN isn't a word that comes to mind, it's a challenging TEST.

Shivas,

Your golf game continues to be a legend in your own mind.
You state that 1000 yards doesn't make a difference to you, that 6,700 or 7,700 is all the same.  
What is your current handicap ?  
Playing Winged Foot West and Baltusrol lower from the tips isn't exactly a trip to your local comedy club.

Do you consider the courses I listed, including Newport, super easy courses ?

You also state that you don't care what you shoot, which is contrary to most golfers and would seem to indicate that you have no golfing goals on any particular day, or in general.
If you don't care what you shoot, why post your scores ?

Craig Disher,

Pinehurst # 2 from the tips would be a real stretch.
That's a hard golf course.

Et. al.,

I think the rankings contribute to the misdirected path that golf is heading down, equating difficulty with greatness, substituting a resistance to scoring for FUN.

I think this architectural, Lemming like behavior on the part of golf clubs, anxious to host major tournaments, is also part of the problem.

This desire to provide and PERPETUATE a field of play that only PGA Tour players or the best professional and amateur golfers in the country can handle, is patently insane.

Leaving the golf course, as is, for the members, after altering the golf course for the distinct purpose of testing the best golfers in the world for only four days every 10 to 15 years is absurd.

Unfortunately, this has become the Red Badge of Courage for misquided clubs and members.

Geoff Shackelford saw it coming and told us about it, but very few listened or understood his point.
 

[SPDB]

I'm not sure this would change anything, and, if it did, it might change it for the worse. Your premise assumes that fun and brutally challenging are mutually exclusive concepts. To you (and to me), that is usually the case, but to others it might not.

Also, this might have the perverse effect of discouraging clubs from placing solitary tees for purposes of championship play, while leaving the interior of the holes untouched, or, at least, not substantially altered (think Merion).

Up until now, I thought we were in general agreement that the most responsible way for clubs to toughen up their course while doing the least damage to the integrity of the design was to add new tees where feasible.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

Can you name just 10 courses in the United States that are BRUTALLY challenging and FUN to play ?

And, would those courses be FUN to play day in and day out, and not just as a one time lark ?

Perhaps, for those, like Shivas, who don't care what they score, you could make a case for your non-mutually exclusive theory, but, for those who do care about score, I think it will be difficult to marry the two, BRUTALITY and FUN.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

You must be looking at the Golf Digest rankings again.  

I have a strong sense that if you look at Golf Week's standings again you'll see a strong emphasis on the factors that make the game enjoyable for everyone.  

Yes, Geoff Shack is correct but weren't you the one who routinely defended ANGC when they extended holes or narrowed fairway corridors with trees?  I'm not trying to be critical but you can't have it both ways.  I know you'll argue that ANGC hosts the best players in the world annually, but there was a time, in fact, most of the history of golf, when the gap between the average player and the top professionals wasn't the yawning chasm that is the present reality.

I think what I'm trying to say is that we're in agreement on the failings of the governing bodies to reign in equipment, so now we're left with what is "great"; the fairly challenging, somewhat forgiving, 6500 yard course we both can play or the 7,500 yard, water-laden, narrow monsters that we're told weekly via television is the latest, greatest thing.

 

[THuckaby2]

Tom, honestly, what course is soooo hard that YOU -- a fricking club champ for crying out loud -- have to hit 2 irons, 3 irons and woods into all day? Puh-lease!  

As for reveling in pain, well to me, golf is and always has been a relative exercise.  I don't give a damn what I shoot, just as long as I get into my human ATM (oops, I mean "buddy's  wallet"), and hopefully beat him straight up but that is entirely gravy.

Unless and until I get a game back that's worth talking about, raw numbers mean nothing to me.  What matters is the challenge of hitting the shots and getting "enough" satisfaction from my round -- whatever "enough" is.

I'll tell you what -- I'd get way the hell more satisfaction going par, par, par on 16-18 at Medinah than I would birdie, birdie, birdie on 16-18 at Nondescript Oaks.  Making birdie by spray-whiffing a driver, slop-fanning a wedge to a defenseless green and somehow miraculously making the putt does nothing for me.  Turning a 3/4 driver or full-nuked hybrid 1 iron around the corner at 16 at Medinah, carving a 5 iron into that back right pin and 2 putting for a 4 is way the hell more satisfying to me.  

shivas:  neither of us is right, neither of us is wrong.  It is just very plain that we have different standards.  I too love to pull off shots - I just set my standards far lower as to the challenge required.  I also don't hit the ball nearly as far as you, or most good players, so that also likely explains things.  You know darn well there are PLENTY of courses that would require grinding out 2irons and 3woods all day for me, from the tips.  Let's start with Olympic Lake.  That to me is less fun than facing a variety of shots.

So really that's the key difference.  I see my challenges really as just making solid contact and hitting the ball correctly - I am not kidding.  Challenges beyond that either come from a good opponent in match play, or not at all.  By that I mean I don't need the course to be very hard for golf to be sufficient challenge for me.  You do.  Thus the difference.

And to each his own.

Just don't make me suffer from the tips unless I ask for it, OK?

[Brian_Gracely]

Shivas,

This is a load of crap.  You're just baiting Pat to ask you..."so, how do you measure yourself against other golfers?"

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

You must be looking at the Golf Digest rankings again.  

No, I haven't[/color]

I have a strong sense that if you look at Golf Week's standings again you'll see a strong emphasis on the factors that make the game enjoyable for everyone.  

Yes, Geoff Shack is correct but weren't you the one who routinely defended ANGC when they extended holes or narrowed fairway corridors with trees?  I'm not trying to be critical but you can't have it both ways.  I know you'll argue that ANGC hosts the best players in the world annually, but there was a time, in fact, most of the history of golf, when the gap between the average player and the top professionals wasn't the yawning chasm that is the present reality.

You're confusing the issues.  Fun for the amateur golfer from the back tees was never part of the discussion on the changes at ANGC.

I defended some of the changes at ANGC, specifically lengthening the course on holes like # 13 and others.
The FUN factor from the back tees was never a consideration.
It was strictly about challenging the best players in the world at a Major tournament vis a vis architectural changes.
For the PGA Tour Pros, # 13 is a better hole today then it was 3 years ago.  Likewise, I'd rather see medium to long irons hit into # 18, as was originally intended, rather then easy sand wedges.

If you were familiar with ANGC you'd be aware that there is a set of tees called, "The Members" tees, and those tees are unchanged, and play from them remains FUN.
I never stated that playing from the tips was fun.[/color]

I think what I'm trying to say is that we're in agreement on the failings of the governing bodies to reign in equipment, so now we're left with what is "great"; the fairly challenging, somewhat forgiving, 6500 yard course we both can play or the 7,500 yard, water-laden, narrow monsters that we're told weekly via television is the latest, greatest thing.
I think that's the misquided direction golf has gone in, squeezing the FUN out of the game[/color]

 

[David_Madison]

At the risk of breaking up the lovefest and getting back on topic:

Cuscowilla
Tobacco Road
University of Michigan
Mid Pines
World Woods - Pine Barrons
Baltusrol Upper
Caledonia
The Homestead

[A.G._Crockett]

Caledonia and Tobacco Rd. would be wonderful examples of this concept.  Neither is so long from the tips as to make length the major problem to be solved.  Though totally different, they are both wonderful fun.  In fact, I would go so far as to nominate ALL Strantz courses.

How about Southern Pines?

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