[A_Clay_Man]

Here at my home course there is a very unusual hazard on the inside dogleg of the current first hole. It is a limestone depression that is played as a lateral hazard. It extends for about 80 yards from the 120 yd mark to about 40 out. Under normal conditions it is playable(club destruction optional). However, after watering runoff causes one small section to retain about three inches of water. This section is at the front of this hazard where if you do drive into it, more than likely, it will be in this small section.

My question is there any way to treat it like a bunker that would allow for a drop out of the water but still in the hazard? I feel this is proper and fair in the same way as if there is casual water in a bunker but by calling it a lateral this is a violation of the rules.

Any suggestions? Anonomous smart ass comments to show me how stupid I am will not be neccesary, thanx.

[JohnV]

A water hazard is defined as "any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature."

If it meets that definition, it is a (lateral) water hazard.  There is no such thing as "casual water" in a water hazard, it is all formal .  Therefore, there could be no relief from the water in the manner you would like.

If it doesn't meet the definition of a water hazard, it shouldn't be marked as one and then the area would be casual water and relief would be available at the nearest point of complete relief.

So, either it is a water hazard or it isn't.  You can't have it both ways.

[A_Clay_Man]

A water hazard is defined as "any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature."

JohnV- Thanx for the ruling but I still have questions. Mostly because I don't think it qualifies for any of those except for maybe the term ditch. I say Maybe because it is below the surface of the grass's surface. But by no means is it a corridor for water. Hell, this is New Mexico there is no water save for the irrigation ponds, which this is not part of. There is one other area on the course where exposed limestone is in play but it is even with the playing surface.

We are in the process of discussing local rules and perhaps we could make one for all exposed limestone surfaces?

An interesting story about this limestone bunker on the first hole: Back when Eddie and I visited herein may of 96' the config was reversed and this was the tenth. We had the first tee time and when we got there there was a gentleman pleading to let him and his son go off first. The son had earlier in the week played in the ncaa campionship golf tourney and was actually leading the individual event when on the penultimate hole, took an eleven. EEE OOOO leven, Yo, double toothpicks.

After 9 holes of being impressed with this guys game we got to this hole. He drove it into this same limestone hazard in question. There are some medium sized rock boulders that do dot the circumference of the pitlike whatever it is. His ball was behind one of these rocks and after failing to extracate we quickly saw how and why he took a yo. The guy started whinning and carrying on about how those rocks had no business being on the golf course blah blah blah.

[JakaB]

Adam,

I play a few courses round here with small maintenance budgets and a lot of trees....thus in the fall the bunkers are filled with leaves as high as four inches....well the majority of players just think this is not fair and simply remove all of the leaves and continue on....usually placing their ball in the trap....non golfers hate the bunker drop as it leaves such a bad lie.   They leave the hole happy not knowing any better so who really gives a crap....so I would suggest just doing the same and kicking your ball out of the water....these are not really breaking rules just bending interpretations.   I would hate to see a one shot penalty for a bad swing or poor choice ruin a beautiful day.

[JohnV]

Since limestone rocks are not man-made, they can't be obstructions.  Unless they are loose they aren't loose impediments (even then you'd probably need Tiger's gallery to move them  .

So, unless you are planning to contravene the rules of golf by coming up with a rule that isn't allowed (ala declaring the desert as a lateral water hazard) I can't see much you can do about them.

Ask Tim Herron about rocks on golf courses and see what his opinion is right now.

[A_Clay_Man]

JohnV- Aren't all local rules contravening the rules of golf? My question is if we can't call the native areas lateral how can we call this limestone thing a lateral?
also,
If the limestone isn't decalred anything and the casual water is there, I am entitled to a drop, no?

The new gm is hyped on setting the course up for usga rules and will make all canyon areas lateral water hazards as per your definition. BUt, there are some canyon areas that transcend into native areas. Does one arbitrarily pick a spot where the native ends and the canyon starts and put red stakes there??
Also, there is one cross hazard that clearly carrys water when there is a natural over-flow. Right now it's played as a waste area and has been shored up with some concrete walls to help slow the water down when it  does flash flood.
 Can one decide whether or not to make it a lateral hazard and play it as waste? or are we stuck with the definition above and anything that carries the water needs to marked red?
I value your input on this and appreciate how hard it must be trying to figure out what the heck I'm saying. So please if you need more clarification, just ask.

[A_Clay_Man]

JakaB- I think you misunderstood the reason for my inquiry. I have no interest in personal benefit other than knowing the course is truely setup by and under the rules. Sure, my feeelings of having it play unfairly when there is casual water in what was never designed to carry water, by man or god. But because of the overwatering of the course pools develope on the limestone. To me this is casual water because the caprock like thing we're discussing does not fit JohnV's definition above.

Tell me where I am wrong, please.

[JohnV]

Adam,

Rule 33-8 says:
a. Policy
The Committee may make and publish Local Rules for local abnormal conditions if they are consistent with the policy set forth in Appendix 1.
b. Waiving or Modifying a Rule
A Rule of Golf shall not be waived by a Local Rule.  However, if a Committee considers that local abnormal conditions interfere with the proper playing of the game to the extent that is necessary to make a Local Rule which modifies the Rules of Golf, the Local Rule must be authorized by the USGA.

If you get a Decisions book and look under 33-8 you will see all kinds of local rules and whether they are legal or not.  Also Appendix 1 of the Rule book contains a number of local rules.

The question of your limestone area is, does it meet the definition of a water hazard?  If it does and it also meets the definition of a lateral water hazard, put red stakes around it.  If it is lateral, put yellow stakes around it.  If it isn't a water hazard do nothing and you get relief from the casual water.

As to where it transitions back to scrub, if it is well off to the side, you could either put stakes on the far side or extend the water hazard to infinity that direction.  For a wide hazard on the side, where it is unlikely that someone would go even wider and it would be hard to tell, I'd extend it, but if it was narrow or the person could easily see that they were wide of it, I'd mark both sides.

For your last area, if it is something that is crossed, it probably should be marked as a regular water hazard and have yellow stakes.  Red (lateral) water hazards are overused by courses.  Having helped the USGA mark Pumpkin Ridge, I was surprised by the number of places they removed red stakes and put in yellow.  Definitely more than the PGA Tour guys had done for the Nike Tour Championship.  Read the definition of a lateral water hazard and determine if it applies.  If not, it should be marked as a regular water hazard.

In your post you frequently call something a lateral hazard.  I'm sure you are using that as a shorthand for a lateral water hazard, but just to be clear, first it must be a water hazard before it can become a lateral one.

[John_McMillan]

Defining an area as a hazard sometimes helps the golfer to play the hole.  From your description of the hazard, even when it is dry, it sounds like it would be easy to obtain a lie in the hazard from which play is impossible or treachorous (your description of club destruction and the college player's troubles).  If the area is not marked as a hazard, the option is to declare the ball unplayable, and either -
  (i) drop within 2 club lengths of the spot where the ball lay
  (ii) drop on a line between the ball and the hole
  (iii) replay from the spot of the original stroke.

Option (i) could keep the ball inside the unplayable area, offering no guarantee of a playable lie.

Option (ii) takes the player outside the hole, again with no guarantee of a playable if the adjacent areas are not playable.

Option (iii) guarantees a playable option, but is a severe penalty.

If the area is marked as a lateral hazard, the point of entry into the hazard becomes an additional option for relief, which allows the golfer to drop within 2 clublengths of this point - which from your description of the hole puts him back in or near the hole's fairway.  

[silica]

aclayman,

1.   Fill it with sand and make it a bunker
2.   Don't hit it in there
3.   Take your penalty like a man
4.   Stop lobbying in the name of fairness
5.   All of the above

[Up_North_Pro]

I was waiting for a superintendent like silica to write about not hitting it there....used to be funny, now seen as an
unsophsticated slam on the greatest game on grass.  What the responses to your question are trying to say Mr. Clay, is that by identifying this area as lateral water (even more generous than a water hazard), it is a bonus for you and an example of how the rules of golf can be there to help.  If Mr. 11 learned anything (sounded like he didn't, as he's still in there flailing away in the rock pile) next time he'll take his relief and finish the hole.  Obviously some at your club feel as if the rocky terrain poses problems for golfers as well and are doing them a favor by allowing for the lateral designation, which as mentioned earlier is not an allowable interpretaion.  Let the rules be your friend...  

[A_Clay_Man]

Thank you all for your advice and counsel.

End of thread, please.

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