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A_Clay_Man

Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2003, 12:34:19 PM »
Patrick- Even though it is that type of comment which seems to start the denegration of threads, I'll respond by saying that my remark was somewhat jokingly phrased. But I can assure you Patrick, when you plunk down your greenbacks the starter doesn't check to see if you paid for the cart. Ergo, thrown in. ;D

As for the intricacies of the caddy biz at Pebble, it is up to each individual caddie to make sure that if there are people in the group who are gonna lean on him. He needs to let them know up front the forecaddie fee. It was half of the regualr fee but the service is mostly yardages and reads. Completly individualistic for the caddie but with the addition of CSI as management of the caddies, i'm sure any naive kid would just give it away. And if he;s taking away from your interaction and you're paying full frieght. You must say something, first to the caddy and then in the pro-shop. Belive me the squeaky wheel gets the grease because of the fear factor. Best story about this subject was back in the day when it was 45 a bag. Forecaddie was $22.50. Caleb, a true norcal character of the young variety was on the first with his twosome. The other twosome was caddieless. The cost structure was explained to them with the caddiemaster standing right there. They refused service. When one of the gentleman put his ball in the ground and looked up and turned to Caleb and asked "how far to the bunker?" Caleb, quick as a cat, cameback with "twenty-two fifity" and the caddiemaster was almost in tears. ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2003, 12:35:45 PM »
I think the greatest riposte to give to a golfer sans caddie but who continually requests help, is the classic, "Ask your f***ing golfcart."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Andy Hodson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2003, 12:48:52 PM »
Redanman

This may surprise you to read...but the best thing for a golf course may not be for it to go private and rip the cart paths up.

I'm at a private course that plays less than 5000 rounds a year, and, save for a few mulch paths here and there, we have no cement paths.

In the name of course condition improvement, we may put a continuous path in. The reason:

So the maintanence vehicles have somewhere other than the turf to travel on during their rounds. The amount of traffic, and subsequent wear and tear, they create amazes me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2003, 01:44:40 PM »
That is interesting Andy, I am trying to think if our maintenance guys ever try to stay on the paths.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2003, 02:51:50 PM »
Pebble Beach is without a doubt one of the truly great and spectacular courses in the world. The overall setting and challenge of the golf course is hard to beat anyhwhere. It is truly among my favorites and I love with my heart and soul. Have had the opportunity to play it many times over the years.

Now having said that I will never play Pebble Beach again. I played once again this past March (against my better judgment) and would up once again with a 5 hour and 40 minute round of golf.

This was caused primarily by the backup at No. 8 (from the normal tees, not up top) but it never recovered. This was due to having golfers on the course who looked like they had never played the game before and being in carts.

My group had caddies and we were moving along nicely for six holes and then disaster set in.

But hey at $20/hole I doubt the so called marshalls are going to say too much to the slow players.

Patrick:
The cart revenue doesn't matter. The cart fees are included in the Greens Fee unless you are not a guest of the Pebble Beach Resorts, then it is an additional $25. However if you are not a guest at the resort it is almost impossible to get a tee time.

Even if you have a caddie there is no reduction in the Greens Fee. The caddie is an additional $55 plus tip. (Generally $20 to $30)
Best,
Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2003, 04:41:57 PM »
A Clayman & Dave Miller,

The costs associated with the purchase/lease of carts, their maintainance and a profit are all components of the greens fee, that are factored into the greens fee and are a profit center to the corporation.

If some don't take carts, the profit margin increases.

When a group of purchasers plunks down millions of dollars, the order of business is to run the operation at a profit.

That pursuit comes into conflict with some interests, but, that's the way it is.

A Clayman,

My comment doesn't lead to the denegration of threads,
it leads to accuracy and accountability in posting.

Your initial response was worded such that one was led to believe that PB was being generous, offering a frill or freebee, when none exists.

To some, the lure of Las Vegas is the illusion of freebees,
it's usually cheaper to pay for your room, meals and entertainment, rather then spend significant in time in the casino.

If you inadvertantly made an incorrect or inaccurate post,
a simple revision or correction will suffice to set the record straight.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2003, 05:51:53 PM »
How much does it cost PB per cart, per round, including maintenance...?  More than $5-10?  Pretty miniscule given the green fee for a two ball, $700+
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2003, 06:59:42 PM »
P_Turner,

If you can tell us if they purchase or lease their carts, and the duration or cycle of either, and any extraneous terms connected to the sale/lease, it could probably be figured quickly.

But, there is great diversity with respect to how clubs account for operating and capital expenditures in their budgets, making comparisons very difficult.

At most clubs, you'll find the cart rate for 18 holes is above
$5-$10.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2003, 07:02:37 PM »
Patrick:
The carts at PB are electric. If one does not take the cart it does not affect the Profit Margin at all. They have planned for so many cart for each day and if they are not used the only incremental cost (since they are already there) is the cost of recharging them. However if they are not used the cost of recharging them is probably a lot less than Paul Turner's estimate of $5 - $10. Probably more like a few pennies.
Thus, it is my belief that the rounds are priced as if everyone takes a cart and if it not used it makes no difference because it is being paid for anyway and the incremental cost for a cart used or not used is the re-charging cost which is peanuts ;D in the grand scheme of what golf is all about.
Best
Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2003, 07:31:53 PM »
Dave Miller,

I don't know how it works at your club, but many clubs have labor costs associated with cleaning, washing, and repairing of carts at the end of the day.  If a cart is not used, those costs are never incurred.

One also has to figure in the cost of the cart from a purchase or leased basis and the shelf life of a cart in determining daily rental fees applicable to each cart.

What is the cost of a cart for 18 holes at Charles River ?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2003, 08:15:39 PM »
Any way the cart cost is calculated,  I agree with Dave, it's got to be peanuts in comparison with the green fee.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2003, 10:16:54 PM »

Quote
Dave Miller,

I don't know how it works at your club, but many clubs have labor costs associated with cleaning, washing, and repairing of carts at the end of the day. If a cart is not used, those costs are never incurred.
 

Patrick, the labor costs you've described are largely fixed costs , which the club or course incurs whether there are 150 carts to service at the end of the day, or 160. The way you've described things, these costs would need to be more variable to result in cost savings to the club if carts go unused. Alas, I think that is unlikely.

As to the recovery of the costs of a cart via cart fees, that is a decision made when the carts are purchased or leased (i.e., is the club making an acceptable return on its capital by acquiring the carts assuming the net cash flow - cart rentals less repair and maintenance - that will originate from them). But for Pebble, since carts are not broken out as a separate fee, they'd have to look at the total they could charge a golfer hypothetically without carts and with carts. Taking the difference between that hypothetical they'd come up with the additional cash flow ascribed to the carts (pre-expenses). As Paul and Dave say, my guess is that it is peanuts.

Pebble is not a government contractor charging cost + x%, they are the purveyors of a luxury good that is in demand even at sky-high prices. Their prices are set such that the course is sold out each day, and their costs are set such that customers feel they are playing a first-class place...no more, and maybe just a little less (else customers will think the price premium is not warranted).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2003, 05:25:04 AM »

Quote
Dave Miller,

 
What is the cost of a cart for 18 holes at Charles River ?


Patrick:
$17.00 for 18 holes.  If a guest is brought out and takes a cart this is in addition to the green fees.  If a member or a guest walks they don't pay for a cart.
Best,
Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2003, 05:31:04 AM »
Guys

It's all called "bundling."  Same as Microsoft Office or McDonald's Happy Meals.  Simplify the purchase decision (and the "manufacturing" one) by offerring an all inclusive price.  This doesn't mean, however, that there is not a cost or even a "price" to the individual compenents, it is just that these prices are disguised through the bundling process.  Welcome to the micro-economics of the New World Order!  Enjoy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2003, 06:14:30 AM »
Pat, please let the cart thing go.This is not the post for you to change the path of the discusssion. That policy has been in place at Pebble Beach properties for more than a decade. It really does not matter and is not a significant issue in this fact situation. Yes it does at 99% of the clubs in America. I wrote a long post yesterday that was in the same vein as Dave Millers, except the corporate outing, beginner golfer rather than #8 was the theme. I descided not to post it for whatever reason. those of us who love the course, the area and what it means to the world of golf have been hurt by the current management of pebble Beach. The japanese respected the game and the property more than this group. I frankly feel this means as much to more people that the moves or lack thereof of the USGA.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2003, 08:27:26 AM »

Quote
Guys

It's all called "bundling." Same as Microsoft Office or McDonald's Happy Meals. Simplify the purchase decision (and the "manufacturing" one) by offerring an all inclusive price. This doesn't mean, however, that there is not a cost or even a "price" to the individual compenents, it is just that these prices are disguised through the bundling process. Welcome to the micro-economics of the New World Order! Enjoy.

Unlike Happy Meals or MS Office, I don't believe you can choose your puchases ala carte at PB.  You can buy Excel separately (at a premium price), but you can't buy a round without a cart at PB.  So the lack of the ala carte option makes this different from the bundling concepts offered elsewhere.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2003, 08:46:34 AM »
Quote

but you can't buy a round without a cart at PB.

Kevin,

This is absolutely not true. Green fees for a non-guest at PB are $380. A cart is $25 extra and is not required. Caddies are also not required if you choose to walk. Walking-and-carrying/pull carts are perfectly acceptable at PB. Cart fee IS included if staying at the resort and of course you are not required to ride.


Dave M,

It is not nearly impossible to play PB w/o staying at the resort. I did it and several others here haved said they've done it. It's even easier these days since 9/11 when tee times at PB became plentiful (it's picked up recently). Simply call the day before and you'd be surprised at the openings available (singles will do better).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Dan Grossman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2003, 09:27:01 AM »
Adam Clayman -

My round at Pebble was my first and I had a wonderful time.  I was treated well by the staff, there was not a small circus on the tee and I had wonderful playing partners (one friend and one random person).  It is for this reason that I always get confused when I hear people complaining about the Pebble atmosphere, slow rounds, horrible golfers, etc.  I didn't have any of that experience.

I thought it was worth what I paid.  It cost me $525 (half of a $400 room and one green fee).  Now - that being said, I viewed the event as a once-a-decade type of thing and would need a pretty special reason to go back and drop a similar amount of $$$.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2003, 01:06:00 PM »
Dan Grossman --

Exactly. I had an almost identical experience at Pebble Beach last month. It was my first visit there, I played two rounds and had the time of my life.

My wife and I booked one round more than a year in advance; I asked several weeks before we arrived if I could get on as a single by walking up to the pro shop on Sunday morning, and the reservation specialist immediately got me a tee time. Their policy does not allow you to make tee times for two rounds at Pebble Beach unless you stay three nights, but they were very willing to fit me into an opening.

When the weather looked ominous for our first round, I asked if there was a possibility that my wife could be added to my second tee time on Sunday; the pro shop said they didn't have another spot for her, but we should keep checking back with them. By the time we teed off Friday they had reshuffled some groups and let us know we could both play on Sunday, too.

The golf course was full all weekend despite the iffy weather, but the staff was as accomodating as they could possibly be about getting us out twice.

Pace of play was about five hours, possibly due to a little rain both days (we had sun both days, too.) A majority of groups used carts, and there's no question in my mind that keeping them on the path adds at least a half-hour to your round, even though we walked both days.

By the way, I never saw an alternate tee on #8. Both days I had the blind tee shot over the ridge from the traditional teebox -- I would have hated to miss that experience.

I don't know if Patrick's story about the two gentlemen plunging to their death on #8 is apocryphal or not, but after having walked to the edge of the cliff on that hole and realizing the drop to the beach was even longer than it looks on TV, I can see why they don't want carts on that fairway. They can't put a fence on that cliff -- it would obviously ruin the greatest second shot in golf. Sure, a reasonably coordinated adult should be able to keep from driving over that cliff, even in the fog, but at my course a few years ago I came across a cart that had driven nose-first into a creek and was submerged up the seats. The driver of that buggy was perfectly capable of driving to his or her doom at Pebble #8.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2003, 06:11:10 AM »
One of the great things about these pebble discussions is how the oversall beauty of the place and its greatness just blow people away the first few times one is there. It took me 7 to 10 trips before the first real critical eye was cast. I genuine natural beauty of the place and its place in the world of golf is there for all to discover and enjoy. I have it the moment I take the exit till I pull away. Unfortunately, I have been so many times now I see thing which we discuss on here which gives one the impression we do not like or appreciate it. that is far from the case. We just see some tarnish on it where others just see the beautiful gift from the gods. I do hope another group buys it soon and really pushes back the other direction.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2003, 06:48:56 AM »
Dan- Agreed wholeheartedly! I continue to recommend to anyone when the topic comes up, that it is worth it, if only once or especially once.

As for the duration of the rounds and the apparent differing experiences, I say one has to go with the flow. If your out there for a long time, how could anyone complain? If your out there for a quick round, there is part of me that thinks you may have smelled the roses too quickly. especially at those rates.

RJ was put in a tenable position when Clint made waves about the pace. The parent company came down with a directive to pick-up the pace. The integrated marketing plan was probably all RJ's idea(?). From the painting of 4;30 on the range balls to the notation on the confirmation letter, to pace. It is almost an unwinable position in real life, but in golf, anything is possible and leave it to a golfer (a real golfer) to do what is asked of them.
I had many a discussion with some of the pro's and asst's about the best pace of play policies and while they are behind the psychology of warnings ahead of time, they want the communication between the marshal and the group, so when they do do something good, the marshal can come up to them and stroke their egos.

I will always know that most communication with a marshal is counter-productive but if your target market likes the mollycoddeling? All they can do is to try to give them a later tee time and let what few real golfers set the pace.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Eric Johnson

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Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #46 on: June 09, 2003, 09:43:23 PM »

Quote
No slap Bob. That trek back to the path on 6 is almost as bad as going straight up that hill. Not a bad idea to let the lunatics run the asylum on that hole and allow them off the path. Except for that pesky little cliff that has seen it's share of accidents.

I 've heard stories about when Pebble allowed carts off the path. The turf was virtually ruined with all the abuse.

Bob- You very much need to play in the owners tourney (it has a special name). On that day they just ask that you stay off the greens with the carts, but beyond that it's truely ANYWHERE. ;D

You must be referring to The Swallows tournament.  Or if it is in late August/early September, The Pebble.  There are NO rules for those events.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #47 on: June 10, 2003, 07:31:29 AM »
EJ.

I am afraid you are wrong. The Owners Tournament to which Adam referred is for the Partners of the Lone Cypress Corp.
who have a two day event on the first Monday and Tuesday in June. They can drive ANYWHERE.

The Swallows is a totally different tournament.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2003, 03:45:27 AM »
"All they can do is to try to give them a later tee time and let what few real golfers set the pace." -- Clayman

Pace is set more by starting times and course set-up than by golfers. We all think it is the "slow" group, but this simply isn't the case. Virtually all "slow play" (or clogged courses) are the result of poor management on when to start golfers. Groups need to be paced, whereas most management is "...hit when ready off the first tee..." WRONG! That is an immediate way to load up and give the appearance of slow play through waits at many points. The scientist of this is Bill Yates, a process engineer and now president of Pace Manager Systems. I have spent quite a bit of time with Bill understanding this issue -- he has also consulted with Pebble, TOC and many, many others.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
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A_Clay_Man

Re: Pebble Beach and its lost status......
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2003, 01:37:55 PM »
Forrest- My comment was based on perceived procedures from comments made to me by certain groups. While they were two years ago, an about face has probably occured.

 The starter @ PB will not let the  next group swing away until the appropriate time. Plus, the emperical evidence from those who've teed off early proves it only takes one asshole to slow down the entire place.

When I suggested that they try a non-verbal communication system so that the marshal's talk isn't counter-productive, it was explained to me that they want the inter-action because they feel the need, the need to ass kiss.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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