[JohnH]

A_Clay_Man,

I just wanted to point out that the fact that Pebble has a clay subsoil (I assume you are right about that) on the peninsula is not the cause of LDS, hydrophobia is.  There are plenty of golf courses in the world with clay soils that have no problem with LDS due to it's water holding capacity.  Just thought I'd chime in, and this post is not a slam Clay...

[Slag_Bandoon]

 Tom Paul,  wouldn't the practice of F&F create a larger understanding by Superintendants and crews for the spreading of the gospel at that level?   I do NOT mean to imply IN ANY WAY that they don't know what they're doing, but if they, upon approval of management and members, were to pay attention to different ideals and results, wouldn't that be like a liberal arts university for agronomists?  

  

[TEPaul]

Slag:

I'm not certain I'm understanding what you're saying. Is it that firm and fast conditions on most or all golf courses should be regenerated?

If so I couldn't agree more. But obviously we're all aware what the impediments to accomplishing that are.

1. People still seem to like lush green on golf courses and generally that creates softer, slower conditions.

2. Many people would probably enjoy firm and running conditions but for some reason they're convinced that drier and less lush green grass is unhealthy and about to expire (actually within reason the opposite is true!).

If the golf world can manage somehow to get people over that mindset I think many more courses can start to firm up "through the green", at least.

But green surfaces that are firm to the extent they need to be to put good players into a mindset to start using approach shot options other than aerial all day long is simply more complex because at that firmess you've basically taken the aerial approach game away from less accomplished players.

I don't know how to overcome that exactly except maybe for maintenance to vary the firmness of green surfaces depending on whose playing the course on given days.

In other words if you've got "A" players playing the course set the firmness of the greens to that point where an aerial approach will just lightly dent the green (if that) and not bring up a pitch mark. That's the point, I believe, where the aerial approaches of good players become just unreliable enough that they at least start thinking about other shot options.

But if you have general play make the green surfaces a bit more receptive or marginal players will likely never hold any green with any kind of aerial shot.

For the rest of the course ("through the green") it should be firm and fast for everyone all the time--weather permitting, of course, which it doesn't always do.

All this stuff I call the "ideal maintenance meld" and the point of it is the "ideal" can be variable depending on the occassion.

But firm and fast conditions should be returned to golf somehow because the bounce and rollout of the ball is half the game. And my idea about the "ideal maintenance meld" is really geared towards increasing firm and fast conditions bigtime and trying as best as possible to bring all the available options of golf and its architecture (aerial and ground) into some kind of continuous balance!

All this is really just the theory that the more choices a golf course can offer a golfer at any one time and all the time and everywhere, the more interesting it becomes and in many cases the more difficult it becomes too, since the first order of business for any golfer is to decide between a possibly wide variety of types of shot everytime, everywhere.

It's just part of what Pete Dye said about Touring pros; "If you can get them thinking (about what to try), they're in trouble."

The way a lot of golf courses have become most golfers only have to think about HOW to hit a single type of available shot, but if you can get them thinking first of WHAT type of shot to hit from a balanced variety of choices before the HOW of any of them then things should get more interesting!

I just think if you can do that you've created an overall condition that makes any golf course really sing because it's offering all that its particular architecture can offer.

As for the agronomy itself--a drier condition generally speaking creates deeper root structure and healthier agronomy--there's no doubt about that.

[Slag_Bandoon]

Tom, very well explained; as usual.

I can see where some courses are designed for soft greens with water fronts or bunker carries, so I agree with the balance approach.  The expense of physically altering a course to allow for playable/scorable conditions precludes that from happening.  

  I still hold fast to the idea that the less skilled player can have more fun, even if not scoring well, on a F&F layout.  

  Mark Huxford posted a great report by a Mr. Sloan about the most problematic issues of golf courses.

#2 was Overwatering
#1 was Communication !  

 Who do we blame?   the golf course management or ourselves?  

  Obviously, you've done your part; don't let up.  

...and Adam!  More octane to you at Pinon Holes!

[Slag_Bandoon]

[qote author=TEPaul link=board=GD1=1044452163=25#27 date=02/12/03 at 07:04:05]
Slag:

Is it that firm and fast conditions on most or all golf courses should be regenerated?

[/quote]

Yes.  Exactly.

First we had the Model T.  We tootled around in them for several years.  As time, technology, and competition changed, it had to be phased out.  We now have higher tech breeds of grasses, mowers, ferts, water retainers, etcetera, that allow us better conditions but the practice is not practiced to the level I'd like to see.  So, REGENERATION is the perfect word that you've chosen.  Superintendents groom their crews as well as their grasses and with the approach to F&F, it will be ingrained in the learning staff. Hopefully, they will pass their knowledge on to their crews.  

[Don_Mahaffey]

Common comments heard in my career as a supt.
"The course is awesome" (after first cut of overseeded rye. The course was actually a mud pit because of all the water needed to germinate overseed, but it was stripped up nice.)
"The course sucks, why did you kill all the grass?" (during overseed prep when all the bermuda is scalped and dried down, a F & F lovers heaven)
"Your greens are awesome. Man, do they hold a shot" (after two inch thunder storm, they were really bumpy shit, but you could hold a scalded 3-wood)
"if you don't fix these greens you'll be looking for another job" (said by my boss after one of our member guests tourneys. The greens were actually perfect, but they were firm, and a bunch of 20 handicappers had been ragging on him all day long)
Gentleman, for every article you read or comment you make about dry turf, your supt. has heard it tenfold about all the agronomic advantages of dry turf. But, firm, fast, off color turf leads to employment decline syndrome for the vast majority of turf managers. Your preaching to the choir.

[JohnH]

Amen to that Don.  What is it I was always told -- green is good, brown is bad......

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