Half Moon Bay-Opportunity Wasted?

« **on:** February 11, 2003, 01:52:55 PM »

Two weeks ago on my way to Pasatiempo a friend and I stopped by Half Moon Bay Golf Links to see the new course done by Arthur Hills. I must admit I played it shortly after it opened before I got into GCA but all I can remember is one or two holes. After seeing the course and the huge natural beauty that abounds that area of the California Coast my first thought was to Geoff Shackelord's The Good Dr. Returns and the mythical Pendelton Beach Golf Links. I wondered if Geoff's vision could have been grafted to this site I don't know the site Arthur Hills had to work with, the difficulties with the coastal commission etc but I wonder if an archie like Gil Hanse or Doak or C+C had the opportunity to work with this site whether Pebble Beach truly could have been overshadowed. I guess I am wondering if anyone has the backround to how the course was developed and how the work turned out.

« **Reply #1 on:** February 11, 2003, 02:08:17 PM »

NAF:

The Ocean course at HMB has been discussed MANY times on here and most liked it, some didn't, some said more could have been done, etc. You know, the usual lack of consensus about a modern course.

The good news is many of us know an infrequent poster here and all-around good guy by the name of Pete Galea who was intimately involved with the creation of this course... he was Asst. Superintendent through construction and the first year or two it was open. I'll alert Pete to this thread.

My take is Hills did a damn fine job and I like the course quite a bit... but I truly don't feel like arguing about this again!

TH

« **Reply #2 on:** February 11, 2003, 02:13:45 PM »

Huck,

I am not talking about the virtues of the course..I was curious if a course to Geoff's vision as in his book could have been created with natural dunes etc. Hill's course may be good, I don't know I need to play it again but I don't see it ranked high or it viewed as a must play so that is why I wonder if it was a missed opportunity given the parcel of land to create something EXTRAORDINARY.

« **Reply #3 on:** February 11, 2003, 02:20:10 PM »

NAF - I understood that completely, and yes, this was part of several prior discussions.

Perhaps if Mackenzie came back, as in the book, more could have been done. As that was fiction, I truly believe Hills did as much as any living architect could have.

But many would argue that I am full of crap on this point... in fact many did when this came up before!

I thought you wanted to know the details of the construction, what obstacles Hills faced, and most importantly, the features or lack thereof of this land before constuction - Pete G. would have all the answers you could ever want re all of this.

TH

ps - I believe you do need to play it again... but hell, I also know the other courses on your agenda from your recent trip and let's just say you have no regrets, nor ought you give up repeats on any of those to play this one on a future trip out here.

« **Reply #4 on:** February 11, 2003, 02:26:04 PM »

Noel

I lived in HMB for 3 1/2 years in the 80's. Other than being on the ocean, the land Hills had to work with was not in any way "extraordinary." As others have said on related threads there are many far better sites for great golf courses on the road between HMB and Santa Cruz.

I agree with Tom that Hills did a very good job with what he had, IMHO. You should play it again.

« **Reply #5 on:** February 11, 2003, 02:43:52 PM »

Having played there about a year ago, I had a great time at HMB. Because of darkness, I played the last 4 holes with some locals. I remember one of them talking about some difficulty acquiring land adjacent to the Ocean course. Maybe that had some limitations on routing.

Other than that, it was a pleasant and enjoyable layout. The only complaint would be the constant calls of "fore" from adjoining fairways. But that certainly isn't the archie's fault.

« **Reply #6 on:** February 11, 2003, 02:49:17 PM »

I totally agree with Rich, as I have seen aerials of the property, as well as shots of it before it was a golf course, and it wasn't anything I would call Great.

For me, the course holds a memory of an event--my first meeting of on-line friends from an architectural discussion group, and not unlike my epiphany at Spanish Bay, the experience far over-shadowed the golf course itself. The course didn't have to be GREAT, because meeting the people was the beginning for me, of my current life's interests now.

I have even played courses of even lesser architectural interest in the lower West corner of Washington, right near the water, and they hold fun times and great memories. But, I would be a fool to suggest that I wasn't thinking of better golf out there. The possibilities are in fact endless.

HMB is by far the best Art Hills design I have played to date. But that doesn't make me a fan of his work.

But I must claim a bias on myself, I too am a fan of Pete Galea. His efforts at HMB should be a lesson for all that when it comes to Greatness, one must have the most extreme passion to achieve it.

« **Reply #7 on:** February 11, 2003, 03:04:21 PM »

Rich -

How would you compare the final product to something like Kingsbarns, where, if photos are to be believed:), pretty much everything was created & the result seems widely acclaimed, certainly more so than HMB? (Dan Kelly -Sorry about the run on sentence.)

« **Reply #8 on:** February 11, 2003, 03:05:01 PM »

I, too must weigh in on this one.

Obviously the developer was the deciding factor in how this all turned out. The customer always makes the call and is responsible, we have heard this many a time.
Teh coastal property in this area of HMB is exactly as it is between HMB and Santa Cruz, boooooooooooring, with a slope to the ocean, various cliffs.

natural contours=slope to the ocean

Hills and co did a fine job, but there wasn't much to work with. I think the only major improvement without dicking it up a lot with extraneous visuals would be to have more interesting contours on and around the greens, but the routing is interesting and comes to a climax. It certainly could be maintained in places with a St. Andrews Old Course mowing pattern which I have suggested here before. But they did get a pretty good course out of all of this.

It is after all a resort/semi-public course, remember who that will entertain playing it..

And Pete Galea did an awesome grow-in. Kudos.

« **Reply #9 on:** February 11, 2003, 03:06:43 PM »

Quote

For me, the course holds a memory of an event--my first meeting of on-line friends from an architectural discussion group, and not unlike my epiphany at Spanish Bay, the experience far over-shadowed the golf course itself. The course didn't have to be GREAT, because meeting the people was the beginning for me, of my current life's interests now.

The Apostles of St. Andrews? I remember this with great pain as I starting participating in whatever group that was (rec.sports.golf?) RIGHT after you all had this planned. I remember reading with envy as you played all the greats near my home.... It wasn't long after that that you and I started arguing about Pasa, Tommy... and right about then also the very kind Pete G. also had me over to play HMB-Ocean, and the rest is history for me also. In fact this is an interesting side-topic: first meetings with kindred spirits regarding all this stuff. Mine is harder to define, the absolute first, that is, as it all does tend to blend together in memory now... But I remember an event Dan King put together at Pasa that might have been it. Either that or meeting Mr. Huntley for the first time at MPCC....

OK, sorry for the trip down memory lane. But hell Tommy, after all these years we have STILL yet to tour Pasa together, so you can show me first-hand what I sure as hell didn't know then, think I know now, but still want to have taught to me by an Apostle... Did I mention we have this little event planned for March?

TH

« **Reply #10 on:** February 11, 2003, 03:14:53 PM »

Tom,
As I sit here and type this, I'm home for 4-8 weeks on a MD's warning, "Do you want to be crippled?" (a herniated disk suffered at Rustic Canyon's 17th tee.)

I tried in vain to swing a club there this last weekend, Tony Ristola as my witness, and as I took the club back, to make that hearty blow, I let out a sceaming mimi of a yelp.

In other words it would take a miracle to be there in March. But, hey, I'm Catholic too. We believe in them!

« **Reply #11 on:** February 11, 2003, 03:17:32 PM »

Hang in there, Tommy - damn that must hurt. But yes, we do believe in miracles and I shall do my part on the prayer side to try and help this to happen!

TH

« **Reply #12 on:** February 11, 2003, 03:19:25 PM »

Personally I think Half Moon Bay is terrible (both courses) and it is opportunity wasted. With that said, you never know what type of restraints they had and especially the budget since the developer is supposdly really cheap.

It could have been another Kingsbarn or Arcadia Bluffs if they had the vision to build it.

« **Reply #13 on:** February 11, 2003, 03:26:58 PM »

Joel: I'm with ya on the "Old" course at HMB - I've never liked that much, but mainly because it's condo canyon golf with really only one or two good holes, with the 18th being so over-hyped as to be annoying. So no problem there... this being said, hell it was meant to be a housing development golf course, wasn't it? So I don't see much point in wishing for what might have been...

Re the new Ocean course, I don't see the opportunity wasted, nor do the others who have posted so far. Apparently it was pretty non-descript land and Hills did the best he could. Can you elaborate on your take on what might have been? I'm curious because while I have heard many negative thoughts on the course, this is the first time I've ever heard it called an opportunity wasted, specifically anyway and not just speculation like Noel's question in his post.

TH

« **Reply #14 on:** February 12, 2003, 12:03:48 PM »

I was the owner's rep and grow-in superintendent. Briefly, the site was two hills with a lower meadow between and bisected by a riparian. For years it was used for dry farm peas. The soil was very expansive (read-clay). There was no sand or dunes. Water was an issue, hence 1/3 of the site was done in native grasses, with no irrigation. No water used on the site was allowed to drain into the ocean, requiring a substantial drainage system which was routed to the pond on the par 3 seventh in order to be used again. Coastal access had to be provided, as well as buffer zones for the riparian and ocean. Wish I was there right now.

« **Reply #15 on:** February 12, 2003, 02:05:33 PM »

I agree with Joel! As a long time Northen Californian till I reluctantly transplanted to Chicago I've played the course twice and was really disappointed. I know it wasn't the best of coastal properties to work with but the course left me with a shoe-horned cramped feeling with very little character and definition. I just got off Gil Hanse's website and if you look at his work and the shaping of his crew and design associates you can get an idea of the kind of quality detail work that Art Hills left on the table! ( Mediocre site or not) This piece of property in my opinion could have led to an NGLA inspired type of design. The room was there to create some holes with true architectural merit ( read strategic options). Instead Hills chose to route the course so that it basically tacks back and forth in the middle of the property with a series of extremely bland holes. After having played it twice I still can't remember any significant details of any of them. Yes, the finish is OK but 16,17 and 18 could use some quality detail work ( Doak, Hanse, C&C et al) to enhance both the experience as well as add strategic merit!---------------Give me the "Ocean" course at Olympic anyday!!!!!!

« **Reply #16 on:** February 12, 2003, 02:09:28 PM »

Tom:
Here is an example of boring farmland waterfront property that they really worked hard and made something out of nothing. This is at Arcadia Bluffs in Michigan and its completely man made.

Why couldn't they do the same thing at Half Moon Bay? The farm land holes that Pete mentions at HMB are terrible, it makes me think they gave up hoping the ocean holes would be a salvation. I'm not sure who they used for construction but it was an opportunity wasted.

« **Reply #17 on:** February 12, 2003, 02:27:33 PM »

Hmmmm... this is compelling. I guess I just don't have the imagination to think of what might be, but damn that's a heck of a photo of Arcadia Bluffs. Could they have created something like this on the land where the HMB-Ocean course as done by Hills now sits? I really don't know... Pete could speak to the challenges, if he cares to. As it is, I guess I do like what's there more than Andy and Joel, but that's ok.

TH

« **Reply #18 on:** February 12, 2003, 02:50:30 PM »

Here's an aerial to add (or detract) from the memories of each of you ...

http://www.californiacoastline.org/cgi-bin/image.cgi?image=6138&mode=sequential&flags=0

« **Reply #19 on:** February 12, 2003, 03:43:36 PM »

Mike:
Thanks, here is one of the photos off that link. Can it get any flatter or boring? Just the style of the bunkers is telling.

« **Reply #20 on:** February 12, 2003, 03:46:56 PM »

After looking at that photo I have to mention the cart paths, especially the one that runs along the ocean. Nice use of land.

Tom:
I'll suggest that Monarch Bay suffers from this same boredom of not enough mounding.

« **Reply #21 on:** February 12, 2003, 04:11:45 PM »

Mike and Joel:

Those photos aren't always great at showing proportions. For instance, take a look at this place we know well....does it look like a good representation to you? If so, get out the chain saws.

http://www.californiacoastline.org/cgi-bin/image.cgi?image=13149&mode=big&lastmode=sequential&flags=0

PS, Joel, I think the Ocean Cse also has a fair amount of cart paths....maybe not as much as HMB, but close. Real close.

« **Reply #22 on:** February 12, 2003, 04:18:26 PM »

Trouble with the link...try this:

http://www.californiacoastline.org/cgi-bin/image.cgi?image=13149&mode=big

« **Reply #23 on:** February 12, 2003, 05:03:40 PM »

How true ... maybe they can move some of the trees down to HMB ...

It is always fun to post a picture for the discusion, as it usually jogs the failing memories of some of us ...

Ps: Nice orange fence ... I think they borrowed it from CalTrans ...

« **Reply #24 on:** February 12, 2003, 05:08:22 PM »

Hey Kevin (and other O-Clubbers),

I never noticed it before but is the little bunker on the double-green 4th/6th in the middle of the green?

Has it always been that way?

mike

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