[James Edwards]

Whats the reverse redan called?  on the fading side (for the right hander?

Any good examples?

[TEPaul]

I think it's pointless to try to come up with an exact definition of what a redan hole is although there does seem to be a standard definition about playing characteristics. C.B. Macdonald's description (which I can't find at the moment) is probably as useful as any (and goes something like this);

"Take a tableland (greensite) turn the green and tilt it slightly."

Personally to conform to the military reference from the Crimean War I agree with Brian Phillips that a redan green should be at least somewhat above the tee. I feel the military reference shouldn't have anything really to do with military salients but with the basic military standard that defensible positions were chosen almost without exception to be above those postions of anyone that might attack it. In that sense and that context the basic idea of the redan hole is it possesses the necessary height and defensibility (from attack by the golfer). Really good redan holes of this type with the proper firmness (also a necessary requirment to play properly in my opinon) should almost be such that the most likely shot to succeed would have to be landed short of the green and bounced or filtered onto the green.

But exact definitions probably aren't even necessary as it's just a broad concept anyway. I've seen a number of holes all over the place that are (or were) called Redans that aren't much at all like the definitions attempted here.

Most of those holes share some similar characteristic I suppose such as green orientation or the tilt or contour or the green surface.

The vaguest representation of a hole called "redan" I have yet seen is fairly old--#12 at Brookline. It looks to me a real stretch to call that hole a redan but it has been on their card that way for many decades.

[TEPaul]

J.J.S.E.

A left to right redan is generally called a reverse redan. redanman calls them a "nader", which if you think about is a very neat term with some neat connotations, not the least of which is it's the last name of a famous left wing American consumer advocate--Ralph Nader. There's even a word for a word spelled backwards too (that word escapes me at the moment).

Some good examples of the reverse redan:

Philly C.C's #15, very high, 230 yds (Flynn)
Lehigh's #3, very low, 225 yds, (Flynn)
Link's Club #13(?), 220 Yds (MacD/Raynor)
Fox Chapel's #6, 185, (Raynor)

Personally, as I mentioned above I feel the best playing redans are those where the smart shot or one most likely to succeed are necessarily shots that land short and filter and then curve with the tilt of the approach onto the green and are usually hit very low or with a lowish trajectory for the necessary run.

And because of that I always felt the reverse redan doesn't work quite so well as a right to left redan as a low running cut or fade has generally been much more cumbersome for any golfer to hit than the low drawn shot! (but maybe to some there's merit in that cumbersome low fade or cut requirement).

[James Edwards]

TEPaul,

Thanks for the information...

Apparently 9 out of 10 golfers slice don't they? so that gives more weight to the Redan being a tougher shot to execute, unless you take it straight at the pin on a fade... (against the designers wishes) but I agree once executed the top spin is better than the back spin, so maybe there is no such thing as a negar because it fundamentally plays different..

[ChipOat]

Biarritz:

As wonderful a golf course as Fishers Island truly is, I wouldn't call the 2nd hole there a particularly "great" Redan.  Because of the shallow water table, digging deeper bunkers wasn't/isn't an option at Fishers.  Building the green UP 2-4 feet might have been interesting but it wasn't done that way.

"Alps", "Eden", "Cape" and, especially, "Biarritz" are excellent renditions at Fishers - in class with the originals in my view.  "Redan" is a fine hole but there are several mucho better examples IMO (Somerset Hills, Shinnecock and, of course, NGLA come to mind).  Haven't played the others you mentioned (yet).

The reverse Redan at the Links Golf Club was a wonderful hole and tough, too - 190-205 slightly uphill with little probability of a helping breeze.

Although not a par 3, my nominee for "best" hole in all of golf (#6 at The Creek) has a wonderful reverse Redan green complex.

By contrast, the Redan at The Greenbrier's Old White Course is a disappointment.

[Carlyle Rood]

I was browsing through a book by Cornish and Graves, "Classic Golf Hole Design," and reading their thoughts on Redan holes.

They seem to be more liberal in their definition of a Redan hole, and seem to make a distinction between a Redan design versus a Redan replica.  A replica would possess all the characteristics of the original, where a Redan design may possess many of them.

Many of the examples they illustrated were mentioned previously (North Berwick, NGLA, Shinnecock).  Some of their examples surprised me; e.g., the sixth at Augusta National.  They suggested that some Redans have evolved so much over time that they are only barely discernible.  (They also pointed out that Mackenzie, as a custom, did NOT try to directly imitate classic holes in his designs.)

[Will E]

Should be no shock that I'd rate Piping Rock's third as my favorite. You might find it strange that the toughest pin placement is front left.

I was also very impressed with the 11th at Mt. Lake.

[George Bahto]

IMHO: the "nadar" (reverse(d)-Redan) usually plays easier because it accepts the shot better - a high fade which comes in softer. The shot into a good "normal" Redan, if you try to hook a ball into it, comes in hot.

To me the best play into a (left to rt) Redan is a fade even though you are playing into the narrower breadth of the green.

I'd love to see a Redan, in today's world, built at 240-or-so-yards (more the equivalant length considering today's equipment), kept really firm like it was when the old Redan's were built, and now let's play the hole!!!

[Bill_McBride]

I played a par 3 on the Bandit GC course in New Braunfels TX (Keith Foster design) - the hole was named "Redan" on the scorecard.  For the life of me I was unable to detect any tilt, either right to left or reverse left to right, in the design of the hole.  It was 205 from the blue tee, pretty equally bunkered left and right.  Maybe I was missing something.

Doak's 14th at Apache Stronghold is a beautiful hole, highest point on the course, horizon green, and pronounced right to left slope behind a deep pit.  The ball didn't work as much to the left as would have been more fun, but then the draw is not my strong suit!

Now 17 at Mid-Ocean, that is a different story!  It will definitely move right to left and is a beautiful thing.

[Chip Royce]

Bill MCBride;

I agree, the 17th at Mid Ocean is definately a fun hole to play. However, after having played the orig. at N. Berwick, it seemed dramatically different from the definition of the hole.
 
At Mid Ocean, it seemed you could hit a low, sweeping draw that lands at the front of the green and feed it back to a back right pin placement that I had that day. A high fade seemed only neccesary for a front pin (and even then one could prob. bounce it in short of the green instead)

Chip

[TEPaul]

Chip:

I agree with you that Fisher's #2 is an odd redan to say the least, if even it should be called that--although knowing that it is.

Shooter:

I agree with you that Piping Rock's #3 is a great redan, probably a very close second to NGLA's. The one thing I do think Piping's has over NGLA's though is a little more height. And because of that, as I recall, you have to be a bit more precise with where you land the ball on Piping's run-up/kicker approach off the green. I grew up on that course but it's been a long time since I've been there.

GeorgeB:

I couldn't agree more that the world needs a really long redan in the yardage neighborhood you mentioned or maybe even longer with a nice big maybe rather complex run-up approach and filter area.

[Willie_Dow]

Tom

Did you mean to leave Merion East #3 our of the basket of favorable Nader's ?

[Chris_Clouser]

Don't forget about all the Mackenzie versions of the Redan and would the Gibralter hole be considered for this analysis?

Also Maxwell built quite a collection of these as well.  

The original 8th at Dornick Hills (a nader) and the 15th at Old Town are probably the best, both play at about the 215 yard range.  The 3rd at Crystal Downs would fall into that category as well.

[Willie_Dow]

Sorry, that's out of our basket!

[Will E]

Tom,
Keep thinking about 3 at PRC and it might become your favorite. I'd say that it gives you more options than 4 at NGLA. Mainly, as you pointed out because of the height and the backboard.
While at 11 at Mt.Lake you have an outstanding drop shot.
4 at NGLA is great too.

-in discussing Mt.Lake with a fellow GCAer we disagreed on 11. He thought the bunkers we're out of place and that it was one of the worst redans he ever saw. He loved the punchbowl 16th, I thought it was wasted as the approach is usually from 75 yards or less.
different strokes

[CHrisB]

What did Donald Ross think of the Redan hole?  I can't think of any redans that he designed, but I'm sure that must be one out there somewhere.

I haven't played enough in the PA/NJ/NY area, but my favorite redans so far are the original at North Berwick, the 6th at Yeamans Hall, the 11th at CC of Charleston, the 15th at Old Town Club, and the 4th at High Pointe.

Some holes that are advertised as redans are #3 at Merion, #6 at the Bandit (Keith Foster--thanks Bill M), and the reverse 16th at Charlotte Golf Links (Doak), but I have a hard time seeing why they are redans.

Some very good redan-knockoffs are #13 at Yale and the reverse 6th at the Preserve (I can hear it now--"No way! No way Fazio designed a reverse-redan!").

[kevin]

I have been extreamly lucky to play
Camargo #15- my opinion the hardest
National #4- Hit the green then 3 putted
Fishers Island #2- I have to be honest I do not remember this hole
Shinnecock #7- Very difficult, but not as tough as Camargo.
Check out the Photo of the Eden at Camargo, that is a tough hole, if you are long you are dead!!!!!

[TEPaul]

Willie Dow:

While you were away it's been decided that Merion's #3 is not a redan at all--just a hole that's concept is very very vaguely connected to a redan. The reason is it has absolutely zero approach run-up before the green (a necessary redan requirement).

The fact that Merion's #3 has, after all these years, just lost it's name has nothing to do with anything though. It's still one great world class golf hole!

[TEPaul]

"I was browsing through a book by Cornish and Graves, "Classic Golf Hole Design," and reading their thoughts on Redan holes.

They seem to be more liberal in their definition of a Redan hole,"

Carlyle:

Of course they're more liberal--Geoffrey Cornish anyway--it comes with the territory--he's from Massachusetts.

Down here in Philadephia we're more conservative and on things like redans we're whatchacall "strict constructionists"--we don't allow the hoi polloi to get loose with things like definitions of golf holes.

[TEPaul]

ChrisB:

I don't think Donald Ross did any redans. Matter of fact I don't think he ever copied anybody else's holes either. Ross was one of the very few who seemed to be his own man in every way. He didn't partner, he didn't copy things, he didn't even go out soliciting projects either (except Seminole).

If any of us could retro ourselves back to Donald Ross's time we'd probably see why too. He was the King of the Hill in his time. I believe he felt that way and if we could drop back then I think any of us would see that most people in that time felt he was too! In America anyway--and there was definitely more than enough for him to do there. Matter of fact he never really even crossed over into the left side of the country!

[ed_getka]

Tom,
 Didn't Ross try to get the Augusta gig?

[Hunt]

JJSE,

#16 at St. Louis CC is an example of a reverse Redan. Plays 185 and offers 3 different tee boxes offering different angles into the green.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Didn't Ross try to get the Augusta gig?"

Ed:

My understanding is that he really didn't. But my understanding is also that he was royally pissed off that he didn't. Some even speculate that may have spurred him on to do more with the quality and excellence of Pinehurst #2!

[Slag_Bandoon]

 The best RedanISH hole I've ever played is the 12th at Great Blue at Heron Lakes in Portland, Oregon.  Only you have to shoot from the 13th tee pads.  

Who's the best John Wayne?  Sophia Loren?  Best statue of David?  

  Shouldn't we just give these Redanish holes their own names?  On the scorecard at Apache Stronghold, it actually has the name "Redan" for it's 14th.  The one and only original cannot be recreated in its entirety and any I've seen fall short in dynamics.  Don't forget that THE REDAN has the elements of nature conspiring against you and your hopes.  Standing on that tee box, watching that ball sail; that's a moment of unforgettable time.  And the walk to the green is perhaps one of the most suspenseful and anticipated journeys of a golfer's life on the fields.  

[Pete_Pittock]

Pacific Dunes #17. Bandon Dunes #12, although both of these are a bit downhill.

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