Ron Whitten on Shinnecock

[MCirba]

Bryan,

Great post, thanks!   Please see my responses in  blue below.


It's nice to see that the Merion minute documents that were top secret private six years ago have now been posted.  What changed in those intervening six years?  Is there anything new in this debate that has changed anybody's position?

I think lots of new information has surfaced, although it's been generally disregarded in this discussion for obvious reasons.   For instance, who previously knew that Rodman Griscom had spent summers in North Berwick under the tutelage of Ben Sayers and would have certainly been very familiar with the Redan?   Also, much more research on the life and work of Hugh Wilson has been done in the interim and are reflected in my IMO pieces on this site. 


I see the word "acquired" used regarding the RR land.  I thought there was agreement that it was leased all the way up into the 1970's.  I don't recall a date ever being put on when the lease began.

I should have used the term "leased" as that's what they in fact did with the 3 acres of railroad land.   Francis told us that it was relatively easy to place the first 13 holes with a little help from some additional land north of Ardmore Avenue, but fitting the final five holes was still a problem, all of which preceded his brainstorm.   I find it interesting that the November 15, 1910 Pugh & Hubbard map does not yet indicate that railroad land as part of the golf course yet and wonder what that does to our understanding of the timing?


Re the 117 acre parcel that was announced in November, I don't think anybody knows precisely where that was to be, or even whether it was just a placeholder amount while they figured out the routing and design and knew the precise amount and location that they needed.  In July they bought 120.01 acres.  Since we don't know where the 117 acres was, it is impossible to know where the extra 3 acres was.  It is unclear from the Thompson resolution whether they were talking about the RR land or the cost of adding 3 acres from HDC to the agreed 117 acres.

In concept, I like the idea of the 117 acres as a theoretical placeholder, but I'm not sure that meshes with the facts.   For instance, we know in February 1911 Hugh Wilson again mentioned 117 acres to Piper and Oakley and we know he said he was going to send them a contour map, which I'm assuming indicated 117 acres....whether or not that was done by Pugh and Hubbard and based on their dimensions or something Richard Francis created is unknown.   We also know that the Thompson Resolution indicated a swap of land "already purchased" for land adjacent plus three acres more so they had to have been working some some real boundary, and not just a placeholder by that time.   


Re David's last question, I did, six years ago, overlay the land plan on Google Earth and measured the area.  It's not accurate, but my best estimate at the time was that the land plan showed 124 acres.  My guess is that Pugh and Hubbard had not, in November, surveyed GHR to get precisely 117 acres since the routing and design wasn't known at that time and Merion and HDC had purposely left the western boundary fluid until they knew precisely where the course was going to go.  By July, Pugh and Hubbard had surveyed GHR (precisely where it is today) for the deed, and according to the deed the road was already in existence by then.

I recognize that part of the problem of determining actual acreage from that photo is that it's taken at an angle.   The new Merion history book by Jeff Silverman has an image that seems shot right on, although it may not be large enough for accuracy either.   Would a straight-on image help your estimate?

In the picture below the red line is the approximate land plan road, while the blue line is the surveyed road from the deed (and as it exists today).


Looking at the plan again, it is hard not to think that Francis' swap of land for the 15th green and 16th tee is not already approximately on the plan despite Mike's claims of "vast" differences in the measurements.

Bryan, I think if I'm sitting looking at the map late night with Richard Francis and trying to figure out how to fit in 14, 15, 16 I'm going to be perplexed as to how to both provide an alternate fairway around the quarrry on 16 and place the 14th green where I need to so I can fit two holes through there, and so forth.   While we don't know if the Pugh & Hubbard property line is the one they were dealing with at that time, clearly it was too narrow for their purposes and I think your drawing exemplifies that very clearly.  It would also point out how much land "not used for any golf lay-out existed across from the clubhouse due largely to the placement of the original 13th hole on the other side of the clubhouse. 
   

[Jeff_Brauer]

The only thing that gives me pause is that on Bryan's drawing, it sure looks like an even swap of land, if not maybe MCC giving up more than they got. Sometimes, long slivers of land add up to more than they visually look like. And, Bryan is approximating, as well.

[Bryan Izatt]

Jeff,


As I measured it 6 years ago, the area opposite the clubhouse was 6 acres and the narrower strip to the north was 2 acres, so the land plan was a net 4 acres larger on that boundary.


Mike,


Yes, a flat picture might be more accurate, but I think that it wouldn't change the likelihood that the land plan shows a greater area on that boundary.  It might just change it by an acre or two.


Why would you assume that the contour map that Wilson said he would send Piper and Oakley would indicate 117 acres on it?


Rich,

I remember those arguments about "laying out".  Did you notice in the Evans letter of November 15 that he used "laying off" and "put in shape"?  Two more terms to add to the lexicon.

"In accordance with instructions given me by the Board of Government of the Merion Cricket Club, I beg to state that a Corporation will be formed on behalf of the Club, which will purchase the tract of land above mentioned one hundred and seventeen (117) acres, at the price or sum of Eighty-five thousand dollars ($85,000.00), in accordance with the terms of your proposition, as quoted above, and that as soon as this Corporation obtains possession of the property, we will at once proceed to lay off, and put in shape a Golf Links."

[DMoriarty]

Rich, regarding the meaning of the verb "to lay out" it seems your enmity has outlasted your memory.  My argument was (and is) that as used, in the verb "to lay out" connoted actually physically arranging, sometimes according to a preconceived plan. In the case of golf courses, the verb almost always referred to arranging on the ground. For example, I theorized that Wilson was charged with arranging the course on the ground according to the plan. A good example of what I was talking about is the example you mention:  "after laying out many different courses on the new land."  They laid out, or arranged, the course on the new land. 

The best example, though, also comes in the next paragraph of the minutes (my emphasis):

On April 6th Mr. Macdonald and Mr. Whigham came over and spent the day on the ground, and after looking over the various plans, and the ground itself, decided that if we would lay it out according to the plan they approved, which is submitted here-with, that it would result not only in a first class course, but that the last seven holes would be equal to any inland course in the world. In order to accomplish this, it will be necessary to acquire 3 acres additional.

Lay it out according to the plan.  Or more precisely, lay it out according to the plan approved by CBM and Whigham.   This is exactly how I suggested the term was being used.   Wilson and Merion laid out on the ground according to plan.  The plan CBM had approved.  The plan preceded laying it out on the ground.

[MCirba]

Since we're back to terminology discussion, here is what was recorded in the Merion Cricket Club Minutes of November 23, 1914, after Hugh Wilson resigned as Chairman of the Green Committee due to pressure of business (as copied from "The Nature Faker").

And no, they were not being redundant and it's interesting that Richard Francis used the exact same terminology.

“The resignation of Mr. Hugh I. Wilson, as Chairman of the Green Committee, was presented, whereupon, on motion of Mr. Lillie, duly seconded, the following resolution was adopted:

RESOLVED, that in accepting Mr. Wilson’s resignation as Chairman of the Green Committee, this Board desires to record its appreciation of the invaluable service rendered by him to the Club in the laying out and supervision of the construction of the East and West Golf Courses.  The fact that these courses are freely admitted by expert players to be second to none in this country, demonstrates more fully than anything else that can be said, the ability and good judgment displayed by Mr. Wilson in his work.

The Board desires to express on behalf of the Club its sincere thanks to Mr. Wilson and its regret that pressure of business makes it necessary for him to relinquish the duties of Chairman of this important committee.

On motion duly seconded, Mr. Winthrop Sargent was appointed a member of the Golf Committee and Chairman of the Green Committee.”

[DMoriarty]

Bryan,


I am confused. What measured 124 acres? The RR atlas or the Nov.1910 Pugh and Hubbard land plan? I assume you mean the Nov 1910 Pugh and Hubbard plan, but the image above is of the 1913 Atlas.

My copy of the 1910 land plan (the one from my IMO) is a flat scan.  I am pretty sure you have a copy of that.
____________________________

Mike,

Nothing in your latest post changes the fact that, according to Lesley and Merion's board, Merion set out to lay out the course according to the plan approved by CBM and HJW. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Bryan,

Thanks for the clarification.

Mike,

Of course, the quote David mentions also means to lay the course out (in this case on the ground, but there are other examples of the phrase meaning plans) that was one of five they developed themselves, and asked CBM for his opinion as to which was best. (i.e., met his approval) 

If, in David's opinion, they laid out many new courses on the land, then it must mean they dragged the land into whatever conference room they had at Merion, and for that matter at NGLA.  You have provided examples of it meaning plans.  I think we know better.

I guess my point is we are again getting repetitive.  As seen above, many, if not most, accept that layout has different connotations. I doubt we will change anyone's mind on the use of that phrase, or David's take on the phrase "approval."

[MCirba]

In complete fairness, even though the dimensions don't reflect Richard Francis's 130x190 dimensions, it's easy to see how someone could view the Pugh & Hubbard map in isolation and believe that the Francis Land Exchange must have preceded it's creation in November 15th, 1910. 

However, over the past several years, so much more contemporaneous information has been unearthed that doesn't fit with the theory of the exchange preceding that map that it really isn't a practical interpretation.   Recall the words of Richard Francis; he told us that it was a relatively easy matter to fit the first 13 holes  "with the help of a little ground north of Ardmore Avenue", presumably the lease of the railroad land, "but the last five were another question."   

Further, he stated that "We had some property west of the present course which did not fit in at all with any golf layout.  Perhaps we could swap it for some that we could use". 

He also told us that after Lloyd agreed to the exchange, "Within a day or two the quarryman had his drills up where the 16th green now is, and blasted off the top of the hill so that the green could be built as it is today."

For instance, to maintain the opinion that the Land Exchange preceded the creation of the November 15, 1910 map, one would have to believe the Land Exchange;

Happened prior to Joseph Connell writing Merion's Allen Evans offering 117 acres for $85,000 on 11/10/1910
Happened prior to Evans responding on 11/15/1910 asking for time to setup a Corporation within Merion to do the deal
Happened prior to Merion sending that map to Merion members identifying it as 117 acres they'd secured without any golf holes identified on it on 11/15/1910
Happened prior to H.G. Lloyd purchasing the 140 acres of the Johnson Farm and the 21 acres of the Dallas Estate on 12/10/1910 upon advice of Merion's counsel because no boundaries had yet been determined as the land for the golf course had not been definitely located.
Happened prior to Hugh Wilson's Committee "layout out many different courses on the new land" in early 1911
Happened prior to Hugh Wilson's Committee visiting NGLA in early March 1911
Happened prior to Hugh Wilson's Committee returning from NGLA after which they "re-arranged the course and laid out five different plans"
Happened prior to CB Macdonald's visit on April 6, 1911 where he helped them select the best of those plans
Happened prior to the Merion Board of Governors Meeting on April 19th 1911 where it was resolved to purchase the three additional acres that Merion somehow still needed after all of that
Happened prior to the start of Construction shortly after that meeting.

Almost none of this information was available when these discussions started many moons ago.

So Bryan, when you asked if anyone had changed their minds based on new information uncovered over the intervening years, I'd guess I'd simply say that I hope to hell so!   

[MCirba]

Mike,


Why would you assume that the contour map that Wilson said he would send Piper and Oakley would indicate 117 acres on it?

Bryan,

I have to think at some point they needed a working boundary on that west edge north of Ardmore Avenue if only to understand the parameters of their ongoing design efforts.   Whether that map reflected the lines drawn previously by Pugh & Hubbard, whether Richard Francis did a new map for the Committee, or some variant, I think they would have needed something and I think the rest of the record reflects that they did have some proposed boundary prior to the Francis Exchange.

As mentioned above in my previous post,  Richard Francis at the time of the land exchange wrote that "We had some property west of the present course which did not fit in at all with any golf layout.  Perhaps we could swap it for some that we could use". 

Similarly, the MCC Minutes of April 19th, 1911 stated;

Whereas the Golf Committee presented a plan showing a proposed layout of the new
Golf Ground which necessitated the exchange of a portion of land already purchased
for other land adjoining and the purchase of about three acres additional...

Of course, all of this implies ownership of the land in question, or at least some portion of it.

No land was owned by anyone associated with Merion prior to H.G. Lloyd's December 10th, 1910 purchase of the 140 acre Johnson Farm and the 21 acre Dallas Estate which encapsulated the 117 acres Merion believed they needed.

If the Francis Exchange happened prior to then it would have had to have been at gunpoint. 

[JESII]

Actually Mike, all one has to believe is that HGL had effective control over that land prior to the legal transfer...which he did. If not, why does the map label that land HDC Co as of November 15th?


At what point in the late summer or fall of 1910 did HGL assume control of HDC?

[Rich Goodale]

Rich, regarding the meaning of the verb "to lay out" it seems your enmity has outlasted your memory.  My argument was (and is) that as used, in the verb "to lay out" connoted actually physically arranging, sometimes according to a preconceived plan. In the case of golf courses, the verb almost always referred to arranging on the ground. For example, I theorized that Wilson was charged with arranging the course on the ground according to the plan. A good example of what I was talking about is the example you mention:  "after laying out many different courses on the new land."  They laid out, or arranged, the course on the new land. 

The best example, though, also comes in the next paragraph of the minutes (my emphasis):

On April 6th Mr. Macdonald and Mr. Whigham came over and spent the day on the ground, and after looking over the various plans, and the ground itself, decided that if we would lay it out according to the plan they approved, which is submitted here-with, that it would result not only in a first class course, but that the last seven holes would be equal to any inland course in the world. In order to accomplish this, it will be necessary to acquire 3 acres additional.

Lay it out according to the plan.  Or more precisely, lay it out according to the plan approved by CBM and Whigham.   This is exactly how I suggested the term was being used.   Wilson and Merion laid out on the ground according to plan.  The plan CBM had approved.  The plan preceded laying it out on the ground.

No enmity, Dave.  I just think that I am right and you are wrong.

Have a nice day!

[DMoriarty]

Mike, we all understand your theory on the land swap.  Restating it over and over again will do nothing to change the fact that, as Bryan notes, the subject land was already on the plan in mid-November of 1910.

I'd appreciate it, though, if, in endlessly rehashing your theory, you at least try to refrain from misrepresenting the record.  For example you state that the swap would have had to have "Happened prior to Hugh Wilson's Committee 'layout out many different courses on the new land' in early 1911."   While I am impressed by your ability to fit so much misleading information into a single sentence, your doing so does nothing to advance the conversation.  There is nothing in the record which suggests that it was necessarily the construction committee who attempted to lay out the different plans on the land, and nothing to suggest that this occurred in "early 1911."

There may have been attempts to lay out "many different plans" on the ground long before early 1911.  One such plan was Barker's plan which so often gets forgotten about in these conversations.  Other such plans may have attempted to incorporate the land beside the clubhouse and apply whatever else CBM and and HJW had verbally suggested to them during their visit or after.  Other such plans may have involved trying to make it all fit.  Indeed, the Francis swap may well have paved the way for one or more of these plans. 
________________________________________

As for your latest theory that the swap could not possibly have occurred prior to the transfer of title to Lloyd (for HDC) in December of 1910, and that any swap before that "it would have had to have been at gunpoint," such arguments betray an inability and/or unwillingness for you to discuss the material reasonably and honestly.

The swap occurred during the planning stage.  For you to suggest that Merion couldn't have been planning before December 1910 says more about you and your methods than it does about anything that happened at Merion.

[DMoriarty]

No enmity, Dave.  I just think that I am right and you are wrong.

Have a nice day!

If I am "wrong" then so is Merion, because the minutes indicate that Merion understood and applied the phrase exactly as I had suggested.
_____________________________________

Jim, I don't believe that Lloyd (and other Merion investors) bailed out HDC until the fall of 1910.  IIRC, the investment plan is discussed in the November circular.

But Merion obviously had access to the land for planning purposes before this, which is evidence by the CBM and HJW visit in June of 1910. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

In complete fairness, even though the dimensions don't reflect Richard Francis's 130x190 dimensions, it's easy to see how someone could view the Pugh & Hubbard map in isolation and believe that the Francis Land Exchange must have preceded it's creation in November 15th, 1910. 

However, over the past several years, so much more contemporaneous information has been unearthed that doesn't fit with the theory of the exchange preceding that map that it really isn't a practical interpretation.   Recall the words of Richard Francis; he told us that it was a relatively easy matter to fit the first 13 holes  "with the help of a little ground north of Ardmore Avenue", presumably the lease of the railroad land, "but the last five were another question."   

Further, he stated that "We had some property west of the present course which did not fit in at all with any golf layout.  Perhaps we could swap it for some that we could use". 

He also told us that after Lloyd agreed to the exchange, "Within a day or two the quarryman had his drills up where the 16th green now is, and blasted off the top of the hill so that the green could be built as it is today."

For instance, to maintain the opinion that the Land Exchange preceded the creation of the November 15, 1910 map, one would have to believe the Land Exchange;

Happened prior to Joseph Connell writing Merion's Allen Evans offering 117 acres for $85,000 on 11/10/1910
Happened prior to Evans responding on 11/15/1910 asking for time to setup a Corporation within Merion to do the deal
Happened prior to Merion sending that map to Merion members identifying it as 117 acres they'd secured without any golf holes identified on it on 11/15/1910
Happened prior to H.G. Lloyd purchasing the 140 acres of the Johnson Farm and the 21 acres of the Dallas Estate on 12/10/1910 upon advice of Merion's counsel because no boundaries had yet been determined as the land for the golf course had not been definitely located.
Happened prior to Hugh Wilson's Committee "layout out many different courses on the new land" in early 1911
Happened prior to Hugh Wilson's Committee visiting NGLA in early March 1911
Happened prior to Hugh Wilson's Committee returning from NGLA after which they "re-arranged the course and laid out five different plans"
Happened prior to CB Macdonald's visit on April 6, 1911 where he helped them select the best of those plans
Happened prior to the Merion Board of Governors Meeting on April 19th 1911 where it was resolved to purchase the three additional acres that Merion somehow still needed after all of that
Happened prior to the start of Construction shortly after that meeting.

Almost none of this information was available when these discussions started many moons ago.

So Bryan, when you asked if anyone had changed their minds based on new information uncovered over the intervening years, I'd guess I'd simply say that I hope to hell so!   

Mike,

As I mentioned several posts ago, you would also have to believe CBM took valuable time to route a course on land not yet controlled by Merion.  Yes, HDC did control it in late 1910, but didn't right after the June 1910 meeting. I don't think they had full control (including the Dallas Estate) until sometime in October. 

Why would a busy man do that, when all Merion did was ask him to come over and review their potential purchase?  For free, even, when he was getting Raynor paid to do courses at Sleepy Hollow and Piping Rock at the same time.  And, still had pre-opening problems at NGLA to a degree?

You would also have to believe he entered some sort of agreement with Merion to do so, and that somehow, none of that got recorded, even once (as David has admitted to in this thread) as their is absolutely no evidence they did so.

Why would they take many plans to NGLA in March 1911, if he had already routed it to any degree?

Why would they draw five more if CBM had routed it to any degree?

Why would they ask him to come over in April to review their 5 plans, if CBM had already routed it to any large degree, either in 1901, or at the March NGLA meeting?

I re-read David's essay yesterday, and as you mention, it was prepared before any of these things came to light.  And, in large part, they did come to light because of David's essay, which is a good thing.  We do know more than we did.

But, I would be interested in knowing which parts of his essay David still stands by, and which may have evolved, as he said they might.

In any case, I am more than convinced that the routing occurred in the Feb-April timeline, and it was Merion that put pencil to paper, but asked CBM his opinion and input on three occasions:

Once on the land purchase
Once at the NGLA meeting where they learned the principles of golf design and perhaps discussed their preliminary plans,
And lastly, once where CBM was consulted on their five plans, one of which must have included the Francis land swap and been favored by the committee, perhaps with some unknown tweaks and suggestions by CBM),

Within those basic limitations of consultation, it is clear that CBM's advice was freely given, and very influential in forming what is now Merion.

[Jeff_Brauer]

"But Merion obviously had access to the land for planning purposes before this, which is evidence by the CBM and HJW visit in June of 1910." 

David, that is a stretch of at least as great as Mike has done.  They walked the property at least one day to see if it was suitable for golf, and asked CBM to advise on same.  There is no record that they were doing any planning at that stage, other than assembling an adequate parcel, the Barker Plan provided by HDC notwithstanding.

[Rich Goodale]

No enmity, Dave.  I just think that I am right and you are wrong.

Have a nice day!

If I am "wrong" then so is Merion, because the minutes indicate that Merion understood and applied the phrase exactly as I had suggested.

No David, you are just guessing as to the meaning of what they wrote..  So am I.  I still think my guesses are better than yours, and that is the last I will say about this matter.

[DMoriarty]

That you guys won't even acknowledge that CBM's visit in summer of 1910 was part of the planning process is really all that needs be said about your unwillingness to consider this information reasonably and honestly.

At the time of the visit there was already (at least) one plan in existence. Barker's.  And CBM and HJW were considering whether or not Merion could fit 18 first class holes on the property, and even suggested that Merion needed to add the land next to the clubhouse in order to accomplish this.  How the hell you guys think they could do that without "planning" is beyond me.  They were also considering making use of the very desirable features, such as the the quarry and the brooks, and even contemplating the construction of artificial mounds.  They even provided Merion with cost estimates!

In other words, they were planning. Maybe not in detail (although we don't know what all they discussed), but they were planning.
______________________________________

Also, while I am addressing Jeff's posts (against my better judgment),  perhaps Jeff will stop misrepresenting the facts regarding Raynor, Piping Rock, and Sleepy Hollow.   According to Bahto, Piping Rock was developed in 1911-1912.  Not 1910.  And there are newspaper reports from the fall of 1911 indicating that Piping Rock was being laid out then. And according to George, Sleepy Hollow came after Piping Rock was already under way.

So, if George Bahto is to believed, at the time CBM began helping Merion plan their course, CBM had not yet begun Sleepy Hollow or Piping Rock, and Raynor had not yet begun his career assisting CBM on his projects.   According to George, Raynor had no "intention to continue to build courses, intent as he was upon returning to his landscape design and surveying practice in Southampton."

If the only information you bring to the conversation is misinformation, then you aren't really adding anything to the discussion
______________________________________________________________

No David, you are just guessing as to the meaning of what they wrote..  So am I.

Guessing?  Here again is what they wrote:  " . . . if we would lay it out according to the plan [CBM and HJW] approved . . . ."   

One need not guess to realize that they were comtemplating laying the course out according to the plan CBM and HJW approved.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Not to divert the Shinnecock thread away from Merion,    but, written correspondence wasn't the only means of communication in 1910.
 
There was this device called a "telephone".
 
Hard to believe that the interested parties wouldn't use it,  don't  you think ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,
 
Would you please answer the question below, which I posed to you a few days ago ?
 
Thanks

Mike Cirba,


Is it your position that Alan and Hugh Wilson never discussed Merion in the pre and post design phase and in the pre and post construction phase ?

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

My copy of EOG Says the contracts were signed and Raynor retained in 1910, with construction in 1911. That is from the timeline in the back.  I am guessing they started design work soon after the contract was signed. I will admit, that without an exact date, perhaps both were signed in a drunken stupor on New Year's Eve.  I also think construction would have taken more time in 1911, so I agree with what you are saying there in general.

I think we agree that site selection is part of the process, and in some ways, CBM did mention the RR land, which was probably pretty obvious to him as a short hole.  So, yes, I agree its part of planning, but still think you have placed the routing process well too early, given all the other facts, and yes, the fact that most routings (NGLA was a rare exception) don't take place until they know the land they will be routing on.  There is no record of CBM routing the course in November, and lots that it wasn't. I go with the body of evidence, rather than try to stretch site selection and purchase in to routing activity.

In fact, in re-reading your essay yesterday, I noticed lost of "must have happened" "most likely happened" type language.  Most of the acrimony and pushback here can be traced back to your essay making so many assumptions and so little actual proof to make its point.  And, I don't often see you discussing reasonably, either. We are all defending our beliefs, and you are not immune to stubbornly sticking to your guns, no matter what.

By all rights, this debate should have died a long time ago.  None of us lets it go.

Pat,

Why is it Mike gets trashed for any assumptions, but you think you can come in here and assume there were phone conversations. Along the lines of David's comments, your last post (in fact, most of your posts) are not productive in the discussion. They are counter productive, in fact.

And, yes, my take is that unless there is some (preferably multiple) mentions of something in the record, that we shouldn't make the assumptions that there was all sorts of contact.  It is more likely that there wasn't, beyond setting up the next meeting, which seems reasonable enough, whether done by phone, letter, etc.

I will agree that it seems as if it would actually be bad form to discuss either Ron Whitten or SHGC on this thread, despite its title!

[DMoriarty]

My version of George's book says nothing about "contracts being signed."  Jeff apparently just made that part up.  The timeline in the back of the book does indicate that in 1910 "Raynor was retained by Macdonald to help build Piping Rock and Sleepy Hollow" but it provides no support for the claim.*  More importantly . . . 
  - The same timeline indicates that the Piping Rock and Sleepy Hollow projects began in 1911.
  - The course listing indicates that both those projects began in 1911. 
  - The text indicates that CBM agreed to create the piping Piping Rock course in 1911.   
  - Press accounts indicate that Piping Rock was being laid out in the fall of 1911.
  - In Scotland's Gift, CBM indicated that he was approached to build Piping Rock in 1911.

Frankly, I don't care when Raynor actually began working on Piping Rock, because it is entirely irrelevant to the issue at hand.  CBM did not build Merion.  There is no reason to expect Raynor, who built CBM's courses, to have been involved.   This is yet another red herring thrown out by those who have proven they will say anything to try and create the (false) impression that CBM was not involved in the planning process.

*The entry in the timeline further makes no sense because, as I understand it, Raynor hired on directly with the clubs, not with Macdonald.

[MCirba]

I think Jeff makes a great point about making sure we separate facts from conjecture, even if such seems reasonable.

Pat,

Yes, I think it's a given that Alan and Hugh Wilson spoke to each other about the project throughout all of the phases.   Alan Wilson said that the advice provided by CBM and Whigham as to the lay-out of the East Course was of great value. 
 
The problem is that's all he said. 

So, if we're looking for facts, we could point out that Macdonald coming down in July 1910 and then writing a letter with fairly lukewarm support for purchasing the raw property was of great value.  We know he referred them to Piper & Oakley and Baltusrol related to soil, seeds, and drainage and that was of great value.  We know that the Wilson Committee's trip to NGLA in March of 1911 was of great value because it's confirmed by Hugh Wilson who was there and later wrote that;

We spent two days with Mr. Macdonald at his bungalow near the National
Course and in one night absorbed more ideas in golf course construction than we had
learned in all the years we had played. Through sketches and explanations of the right
principles of the holes that formed the famous courses abroad and had stood the test of
time, we learned what was right and what we should try to accomplish with our natural
conditions. The next day, we spent going over the course and studying the different
holes.

We know that CBM came back down to Merion in April of 1911 and helped the committee decide which of their five plans was best.   That was certainly of great value.

Beyond that, there is not a shred of factual evidence that they provided anything further, despite years of folks here searching for it.

[MCirba]

Jim Sullivan,

Speaking of facts, I think you brought up a good question earlier about when HG Lloyd became an active officer of Haverford Development Company and when he "controlled the land" essentially.

I'm not sure about the former but if memory serves, didn't the purchase of the 21 acres of the Dallas Estate take place around early November 1910?   I'm not sure how long subsequently it would take civil engineers like Pugh and Hubbard to do a scale map of the 300+ acres for distribution November 15th but perhaps Jeff Brauer could weigh in there.

Speaking of questions, does it bother your understanding that the "appropriate road" drawn on that map bear little relation to what was already determined by the Francis Swap if it happened prior to then?   Similarly, does it trouble you that no holes, not even stick diagrams appear on that map that you believe is the completed course?   I mean, they had just obviously gone through a good deal of trouble figuring all of this out to great detail, down to swapping acreage back and forth, and now they just slap up some piece of crap to send to their members?

In fact, why even hire Pugh and Hubbard to draw the darn thing if they already had Richard Francis's final map with the holes on it???

[DMoriarty]

I think Jeff makes a great point about making sure we separate facts from conjecture, even if such seems reasonable.

You guys think you can hold all of the evidence of CBM's involvement to a ridiculous standard where if it isn't explicitly spelled out it couldn't have possibly happened, but if you apply the same standard to the the rest of the evidence (for instance the evidence, or lack thereof, of Wilson's involvement) then you guys have some real problems.

But if you want to stick with your "no conjecture" standard, then let's first get rid of the notion that Hugh Wilson had anything to do with the planning of the course prior to the date that CBM approved the plans. Because this is all purely conjecture. There are no definite facts indicating that he had anything to do with planning of the hole concepts or the routing prior to this point. 

Look at the minutes.  Every time they discuss planning the course, CBM is the one to whom they refer and defer. There is NOTHING about Hugh Wilson.   If no conjecture is allowed, then Merion was planned by Charles Blair Macdonald and H.J. Whigham, or no one at all.

[DMoriarty]

Similarly, does it trouble you that no holes, not even stick diagrams appear on that map that you believe is the completed course?   I mean, they had just obviously gone through a good deal of trouble figuring all of this out to great detail, down to swapping acreage back and forth, and now they just slap up some piece of crap to send to their members?

In fact, why even hire Pugh and Hubbard to draw the darn thing if they already had Richard Francis's final map with the holes on it???

More ridiculous hyperbole which tells more about Cirba and his methods than it does about Merion.  As has been discussed repeatedly, the Nov. 15, 1910 map is a land plan of the type which are generally created by developers to help them sell their land. Note that the land is divided well beyond the Merion's land and even some of the property owners are designated, as are a few lots which had apparently already been sold. In other words, the map was most likely created by the developer, not by Merion.   

Also, while Merion had most likely already been planning the course, the planning was not yet complete and final. That wouldn't happen until CBM and HJW returned to the property in April 1911 and approved the final plan. 

[Tags:]

Tags: