[Sean_A]

Adam

Its all Greek to me!

Bill

I don't think we really disagree...our difference may be more about emphasis.

BTW - One of the short bunkers is called The Redan (it may no longer exist as on old maps).  The bunker in the left crook definitely has another name...maybe Lamb Bunker?


David

As for the old dead guys, I always "side with the ODGs" in the sense that I try to take what they've written seriously and try to understand their words in the context in which they were written.

Of course, which begs the question as to how they could get it so badly wrong with their label "Redan".  Which makes me believe that something else was going on rather than merely trying to recreate the playing characteristics of The Redan.  I think it is very plausible the word was used to convey a general rather than specific set of criteria which was easily identifiable.  The idea of master designers designing name sake holes so blatantly inconsistent with each other let alone with the original and yet thinking they meet any sort of specific criteria which matches the original playing characteristcs seems very far fetched.  People who believe that are essentially saying these guys were stupid.  

Ciao

[DMoriarty]

CBM set out his ideas on the Redan principle in detail in his 1914 article, and gave examples of its application in the US.  Merion is one example but the other examples wouldn't meet your criteria either. I don't think CBM was "stupid." Rather, I think he was focusing on more general principles which could be applied in a variety of situations to create quality golf holes.

I don't think that even NGLA's Redan would qualify as a Redan by your standard, so I think your standard would have had limited utility to CBM and his mission. 

[Bill Brightly]

Sean,

Other than North Berwick, is there a Redan hole you like, or would even call a Redan?

[Tom_Doak]

Of course, the Redan at North Berwick was named from a fortress in the Crimean War, and most of the principals 100 years ago understood that the word meant "fortress", so it's possible that they used the name for par-3 holes that didn't play exactly the same as the 15th at North Berwick.

I agree with Sean that a severely downhill [drop shot] hole mutes the strategy of the Redan ... yet Macdonald [or Raynor] built such holes at Sleepy Hollow and Yale and used the name just to spite us.

However, Sean's criteria that the hole should play uphill, I don't get.  I don't have a topo map of North Berwick, but the original Redan cannot be more than about 5 feet uphill, if at all.  The green is barely visible because the front edge of the bunker is higher than the putting surface, which falls away.  I don't think playing uphill is essential to Redan-ness and neither did C.B. Macdonald ... the only uphill Redans I can think of in his oeuvre are the 3rd at Piping Rock and [slightly] the 7th at Chicago Golf.

[MCirba]

More from William Flynn in 1927 concerning templates and related;

There has been in the past considerable copying in the designs of greens. The custom has been to select so-called famous holes from abroad and attempt to adapt them to a particular hole. While it is a simple matter to copy a design it is almost impossible to turn out a green that resembles the original. This is not due to any technical reason but is on account of the surroundings being different from the original.
 
Copying greens in detail is not generally a good plan but there should be no hesitation about copying the principal connected with any green particularly when it is good.

It has often been said that architects have designs for 18 greens and that the same ones are used over and over again on the various layouts.

A successful architect of today does not follow that system.  His greens are born on the ground and made to fit each particular hole.

In constantly designing greens it is very easy for an architect to acquire a pet type and to apply this frequently, thus creating greens of great similarity. A tremendous amount of study must be given each site on the ground and also on paper so as to get distinctive types, thus avoiding sameness.

[MCirba]

The 3rd green at Merion's low point is in the front left and had a high point in the back right.  Short of the green is a steep bank requiring an aerial carry.

It is not a green that sets up for what we traditionally think of as either a redan or a reverse redan.   I guess if I hit a slinging left-handed duck hook in there with a driver I might get the desired ground game result but otherwise, not a chance in the world.

Here's what Richard Francis wrote exactly, lest I stand accused of misconstruing his words;




50 GCA Bonus Points for the person who can tell us how the hole "benefited" from Wilson's trip abroad and which "good features" do we think were incorporated there and more importantly, when?   Recall we've been told that the hole was previously designed, built, and seeded prior to Wilson's trip abroad.

So, what did Richard Francis mean?   It really is an easy question.

[Sean_A]

Of course, the Redan at North Berwick was named from a fortress in the Crimean War, and most of the principals 100 years ago understood that the word meant "fortress", so it's possible that they used the name for par-3 holes that didn't play exactly the same as the 15th at North Berwick.

I agree with Sean that a severely downhill [drop shot] hole mutes the strategy of the Redan ... yet Macdonald [or Raynor] built such holes at Sleepy Hollow and Yale and used the name just to spite us.

However, Sean's criteria that the hole should play uphill, I don't get.  I don't have a topo map of North Berwick, but the original Redan cannot be more than about 5 feet uphill, if at all.  The green is barely visible because the front edge of the bunker is higher than the putting surface, which falls away.  I don't think playing uphill is essential to Redan-ness and neither did C.B. Macdonald ... the only uphill Redans I can think of in his oeuvre are the 3rd at Piping Rock and [slightly] the 7th at Chicago Golf.

Tom

I agree that it is likely the rear of the green is more or less at tee level.  However, the forward bunkers and front of the green are at about the same level and higher than the tee and this rise is enough to disguise the nature of the green's defense...so blindness is always an issue.  To me, not seeing the landing zone with severe penalties left and right and with a sharp rise to the green is a critical aspect of the hole.  

Bill

There are plenty of holes with Redan-like qualities that I like and think are good.  While not a true Redan, YHC's 6th is a hole I admire just the same.  Same for Swinley's 4th, but this may be more a Gibralter type hole  

Ciao  

[DMoriarty]

Don't start with this again, Mike.  
  -The hole was planned, built and seeded by September 1911, which was months before Wilson traveled abroad to study the great golf holes. The record is crystal clear on this. Reportedly, the Redan bunker had previously been a barn built into the side of the bank, so it was there already.  
  -Before Wilson returned from his trip, the course had already been reported to have been based on the great holes abroad.
  -Before the course had even opened, Findlay had already discussed the existence of the Redan hole at Merion, and he had previously written about Merion after spending the day at Merion shortly after Wilson's trip.  At that time, Findlay confirmed that CBM was responsible for the layout of the Alps at Merion and (at least) a number of other holes at Merion. (Findlay mentions a number of courses seen by Wilson on his trip, but does NOT mention North Berwick.)

I have no idea how Francis (who was writing in 1950) thought the hole "benefited," but even Francis noted that this hole "was copied from the Redan at North Berwick." Given that we know that the hole was designed, built, and seeded before Wilson ever went abroad and saw the hole (if he did) this tells us a lot.  
_____________________________________________________________________________

Mike's suggestion that this hole wasn't built as a Redan from the beginning is untenable, and conflicts with a number of contemporaneous accounts.   Does he really think they rebuilt and reseeded the hole in the summer and had it ready for opening by September of 1912?  Or does he think that after studying and planning with CBM at NGLA and at Merion, that Wilson hadn't ever quite figured out that the hole was a Redan.  Does he think that when CBM came to Merion in March of 1911 and (again)  went over the land and approved the layout plan, that he it hadn't occurred to CBM that this was to be a Redan?  Silly.

[DMoriarty]

There are plenty of holes with Redan-like qualities that I like and think are good.  While not a true Redan, YHC's 6th is a hole I admire just the same.  Same for Swinley's 4th, but this may be more a Gibralter type hole  

Sean,  Plenty of holes with "Redan-like qualities?" This doesn't really seem to stand up to your own standard, does it?

I too am curious as to whether you view any other hole anywhere as a true Redan, other than The Redan. How about NGLA's so-called Redan?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Richard Francis wrote that the 3rd hole at Merion was one of the holes that “benefitted” from Hugh Wilson’s overseas visit and that “the location of the hole lent itself to this design”.  You’ll notice he doesn’t say that they found that location while looking for a redan hole.   He states that they located the hole first, and only then, working within the possibilities and constraints of their natural conditions, determined that applying some redan principles to that location might work well.

Mike,

You know that the course was laid out prior to Wilson's trip abroad, that's undeniable.

This is wholly consistent with what Francis tells us about the purpose of Wilson’s trip abroad.  Francis wrote that the purpose was to “incorporate their good features on our course” after Wilson returned in May of 1911.

Perhaps he got his notes mixed up?  

[Bill Brightly]

Having spent a good deal of time looking a the Redan at North Berwick last year, it became obvious to me what Macdonald was trying to replicate when choosing the sites for his Redans: he want the gently sloping tableland like this:

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean A,

You didn't answer my question.

Does a Redan have to play uphill to be deemed a Redan by you ?

[Sean_A]

There are plenty of holes with Redan-like qualities that I like and think are good.  While not a true Redan, YHC's 6th is a hole I admire just the same.  Same for Swinley's 4th, but this may be more a Gibralter type hole  

Sean,  Plenty of holes with "Redan-like qualities?" This doesn't really seem to stand up to your own standard, does it?

I too am curious as to whether you view any other hole anywhere as a true Redan, other than The Redan. How about NGLA's so-called Redan?

David

You are starting to get the idea...The Redan is a very special hole whose many subtleties are difficult to capture.  The ODGs were absolutely correct in thinking the Redan concepts are ones which should be used again and again.  And yes, there are plenty of good holes with Redan-like qualities...not sure what the problem is with that statement.

Pat

In theory, I don't think a Redan has to be uphill.  In practice, to achieve the running shot option and create doubt as to the line by blindness, it would be difficult to make a Redan which intended to offer the playing charactersitics of The Redan without being a bit uphill.  But, I have no doubt that a clever archie could pull off this feat on a hole which may even be a bit downhill.  

Ciao

[Bill Brightly]

Sean,

I'm really glad to see you use the words "playing characteristics" with respect to the Redan at N.B. Like you, I used to be critical of NGLA's because it played slightly downhill. I said it was not a great Redan for that reason and I really wondered why Macdonald chose that site to place his Redan. Why didn't he re-create this look?



But then I finally had the chance to visit North Berwick. While the rest of our group was at breakfast, I spent an hour studying the actual hole. When I was on the greensite it hit me like a ton of bricks: Macdonald wanted to mimic the paying characteristics of the green site, and he did this beautifully at NGLA. Standing from either side of N.B.'s green this became SO obvious to me, and I finally understood what Macdonald wanted. I've asked Jon Cavalier to post his photos of NGLA here and I think you'll see how amazinly similar the green sites are shaped. Most importantly, but holes play really firm, there is no way to avoid the influnce of the land.

[MCirba]

Bill,

I think you are correct.   After all, it was the "principles" and playing characteristics of the great holes abroad that Macdonald wanted to capture and not necessarily their exact likenesses.   Just as importantly, Macdonald felt he needed the right kind of soils and maintenance for those holes to play similarly.   To me, that's one of the reasons a soft, soggy inland redan or Road Hole often misses the mark.

All,

There is no doubt that Merion was inspired by what Macdonald had done at NGLA and wanted to also model holes with the principles and playing characteristics of the great holes abroad, but had to do so in a way that made sense with their inland setting.   As David points out, they stated that intent before Wilson's trip abroad; furthermore, it was the entire purpose of the trip.   This may seem counter-intuitive to us today when our expectation is that a golf course is "finalized" upon opening, but golf course construction philosophy was very different in those days.

In late 1907/early 1908 after the National Golf course had been built and seeded, C.B. Macdonald wrote to his friend Horace Hutchinson in England, who reproduced the letter in "Country Life".   It read, in part;

Of course, we have not yet put in the bunkers - that is, but very few of them - and these have been put in where we must put them in because they are where the bunkers are in the holes which we have copied from the other side....  Before I put in the trap bunkers we will do some playing over it in the next year....We have been wonderfully successful with the fertilizer and grass seeds which we have put in."

Even upon opening, Merion similarly was termed a "rough draft".   That Merion would make revisions to the course after Wilson's return from abroad in the spring of 1912 prior to a soft opening in the fall of that year wasn't just some anomaly but the entire intent of the trip.

Francis, who was on Wilson's committee tells us that the location of that hole on the ground at Merion "lent itself to this design".  Further, all that what was left of an old barn's basement on that location was a retaining wall, which they converted into the redan bunker, leaving the retaining wall in place.   Why doubt Francis who was there and tells us why they did it, when it happened, and exactly what they did?

Again, here is exactly what Richard Francis wrote;




It's also important to note here the direct connection between Merion and North Berwick.  

On Wilson's committee along with Richard Francis was Rodman Griscom.   Griscom was the long-time Green Committee chair and had been part of the committee that had designed the second nine holes at Merion's first course.

Rodman Griscom was apparently the man who arranged for George Sayers of North Berwick to come to America and Philadelphia in the  and become the pro at Merion. George was the son of the famous North Berwick pro, Ben Sayers, who had personally trained his famous golfing sister Frances and Rodman at North Berwick in the early years of the 20th century, and apparently even for a month or two at a time during summers abroad.   All of this is well documented in Jeff Silverman's excellent, "Merion - The Championship Story", published in 2013.  

From 1896 until 1946, the 5 golf professionals and 4 assistant professionals at Merion were from North Berwick with Ben Sayers was the point of origin of all of them.  

The connection was so tight that Ben Sayers even drove off the 1st tee ball to inaugurate Hugh Wilson's (and others) Cobb's Creek Golf Course in May 1916!  

[Jon Cavalier]

Bill:

Per your request, the fourth at National.


Hole 4 - 195/181yds - Par 3 - "Redan"














http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61105.0.html

[MCirba]

Jon,

Stunning pics, thanks!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

You're being disingenuous...... Again

Merion was laid out, designed, routed with all of the individual holes in place BEFORE Wilson sailed for the U.K.

Wilson and Merion's intent was to "fine tune" the existing course subsequent to Wilson's return.

That included bunker placement, etc., etc., but, the holes were already set in the ground before he sailed and you know that, so why pretend and put forth the idea that the 3rd hole didn't exist as a Redan until after he returned.

That's intellectually dishonest

[MCirba]

If anyone can show how most of this green slopes left to right please call Galileo and Euclid because the laws of physics and geometry are suddenly null and void. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Every time the actual facts don't support your speculation and fast-held beliefs you have this habit of questioning the integrity and character of the messenger delivering those facts.

Mike,

That's not the issue and you know it.

We've been through this before and you were intimately involved in previous Merion threads were it was incontrovertably proven that the golf course was designed, routed and the individual holes built BEFORE Wilson ever sailed.

You know that, yet, you disingenuously try to rewrite history based on some article.

Strange how you dismissed Whigham's statement that CBM designed Merion, but, accept every statement supporting the agenda of you and the Merionettes 

If you have an issue with what Richard Francis spelled out in simple English you should tell us all why.

I'm content to accept what Whigham spelled out.

In addition, you KNOW that the course was set into the land BEFORE Wilson sailed, so why pretend that it wasn't.
Why pretend that the 3rd hole Redan didn't exist until Wilson returned ?

Please either desist or provide factual evidence to support your position...something stronger than your opinion, or what you think is logical, please.  Thanks.

The factual evidence presented was overwhelming.
Either you've lost your memory or your principles, your call.

Here's the 3rd green at Merion.

That's not the 3rd green, it's someone's rendering of the 3rd green. 

It clearly doesn't slope like a redan or reverse redan and if you'll note the steep slope coming into the green I think it's much more in line with Tom Doak's original interpretation of a redan in that it was a "fortress" green.   In fact, if I was able to supply you with a larger version you'd see that the front left is the low green point and the back right is the highest with over six feet over overall elevation change between those points.   It is just over 358 feet elevation change on the front left to just under 365 feet back right.   The only way that green could ever play like the original redan would be from the parking lot of St. George's Church!  

NO ONE, REPEAT, NO ONE EVER CLAIMED THAT THE 3RD HOLE PLAYED LIKE THE ORIGINAL.

You do this time and time again.

You make outlandish, unrelated claims to try to support your agenda.

But, why is it that you're denying what Richard Francis wrote, which you posted.
He states that the 3rd hole at Merion is a Redan.
He tells you that the 3rd at Merion was copied from the Redan at NB.
So why are you now trying to deny that the 3rd is a Redan ?

You can't have it both ways.



The idea that anyone would try to land a shot on the front left hoping that it would sling to the back right is just silly, frankly.  
Anyone who has been there or played it would note those distinctions.

Once again, you're being disingenuous, and you know it.

It isn't surprising that the Merion Committee thought to use that elevated, fortress-like landform as the site to implement some redan characteristics, such as the steep bunker built into the hillside on the lower side of the steep upslope.

Oh, so now you've changed your mind again and admit that it's a Redan like hole.

How would you describe the 8th at The Creek ?

[DMoriarty]

There is no doubt that Merion was inspired by what Macdonald had done at NGLA and wanted to also model holes with the principles and playing characteristics of the great holes abroad, but had to do so in a way that made sense with their inland setting.   As David points out, they stated that intent before Wilson's trip abroad;

Quit playing games Mike. They did not state their "intent" to do so. They stated it had already been done. There is a big difference. In the Spring of 1912 - before Wilson had even returned from abroad - it had already been reported that Merion had been modeled after the great holes abroad. For example, from the April 14, 1912 Philadelphia Inquirer:  "Many of the holes at Merion are patterned after the famous holes abroad . . .."  The Inquirer reported similarly on September 15, 1912, "Merion has a course in which nearly every hole is patterned after some famous hole abroad."

It had already been done.  The course had already been planned, the tees and greens built, and key features created.   Yes they left some bunkers and "finishing touches" to be added later, just as CBM had done at NGLA, but just like at NGLA, the holes had been planned based on the great holes abroad from the beginning.

That Merion would make revisions to the course after Wilson's return from abroad in the spring of 1912 prior to a soft opening in the fall of that year wasn't just some anomaly but the entire intent of the trip.

There is nothing in the record about "revisions" in the summer of 1912 before the opening.  Sure, finishing touches were added, and bunkers may have been added.  But the greens were there. The tees were there.  The hole concepts were there.  And as had already been reported, much of the course was based on the great holes abroad; holes Wilson had never seen at the time the course was built.  

Why doubt Francis who was there and tells us why they did it, when it happened, and exactly what they did?

I don't doubt Francis. He said the hole was the hole "was copied from the Redan at North Berwick," and it was copied from the Redan at North Berwick when it was built in the Spring and Summer of 1911, before Wilson traveled abroad.   He also said that the hole "benefited" from Wilson's (later) trip abroad, but he DOES NOT explain what this benefit was.  It could have been putting the finishing touches on the proper look of the Redan bunker for all we know, but whatever it was, the hole had already been designed and build as a Redan before Wilson's trip.

It's also important to note here the direct connection between Merion and North Berwick.

As for TEPaul's oft repeated and extremely attenuated attempt to link design elements at Merion to Griscom through his sister, it is sort of funny just how far you guys will go to avoid admitting the obvious. Merion was originally built with an Alps, a Redan, an attempt at an Eden green, a Road Hole, a Double Plateau, and a number of other features and holes straight out of the CBM playbook.  Not only that but had been working with Merion's Committees on the purchase and the plans throughout the entire planning process, and his suggestions were said to be of the greatest help and value. The board minutes even note that Merion determined to lay out the course based on the plan as approved by CBM and Whigham!

So the two of you (and others) can pretend that the influences for the course came from elsewhere, but at this point, based on what we know, that is a complete joke.  
______________________________________________

As for the topo of the 3rd, it shows the hole as I remember it.  There is a flat area in the front right behind, and there is a little plateau in the back left which filters running balls to the right.  A left handed draw will work its way from left to right off of the plateau in the back left.  You keep saying that the high point of the green is back right, but this just isn't the case. It is back left.  

Here is how the hole was described in the Walker Cup guide:
Hole No. 3
“The ‘Redan’ Fortress”

Hugh Wilson’s design of the East Course was deeply influenced by his observations of many of the great courses of Great Britain. As one views the third hole, it looks like an old fortress perched on a hill, and it patterns itself after the famous “Redan” hole (15th hole) at North Berwick in Scotland with its sloping green from left to right.

Once again, Wilson injects deception into his design, as the player has difficulty from the tee determining the hole location. It can be hidden in so many places behind the large right bunker, or distorted due to the uphill shot and raised front portion of the green.

The length of the green, which is the deepest of all of the holes on the course, also requires the golfer to choose either to hit a high soft shot and fly the ball to the hole, or hit a low shot onto the front of the green and have the ball roll to the hole. As Merion’s Director of Golf Course Operations Matt Shaffer remarks, “The third green is very diabolical with many subtle breaks. It is the most distinctive green on the course.” Compounding this challenge is a teeing ground that points the golfer to the right of the hole, and a subtle, swirling breeze that is often underestimated.

The stuff about Wilson's observations is pretty funny, since the hole was designed and built before he traveled abroad, but note that it says the hole was patterned after the Redan, and that the green slopes from left to right.   Note also that one option is to "hit a low shot onto the front of the green and roll the ball to the hole."  This is the position you just called "just silly, frankly."

[Bryan Izatt]

Macdonald's description of the Redan hole from Golf Illustrated 1914 was:

Take a narrow tableland, tilt it a little from
right to left, dig a deep bunker on the front
side, approach it diagonally, and you have
the Redan.

He did go on later to add a bit about a back bunker and also thoughts on how to play the hole in different winds.

Seems to me that there are three main principles he gleaned from the original:

1.  narrow tableland tilted from right to left

2.  a deep bunker on the front side

3.  the tee shot should approach the green diagonally


He made no mention of a principle of it being uphill or blind.

He made no mention of the ridge crossing the fairway half way to the green or the Redan bunker in its face.

I guess these features weren't principles he wanted to take from the hole.

At NGLA he adhered to his three principles.  He even put in the ridge and the bunker in its face, but he did not make it high enough to make the green blind from the tee.  Here are Jon's picture of the Redan at NGLA and my picture from NB.  The most noticeable difference from the tee is the difference in height of the ridge.  So, NGLA is not a strict copy but it does meet Macdonald's three principles and goes beyond that with the ridge and Redan bunker.








Merion, on the other hand appears to have half of principle 1 (lacking NB's tilt) and principle 2 and 3.  There is no ridge or Redan Bunker and consequently it's not blind.  So, Merion appears to be less of a copy and misses one major part of the principles in the tilt.  But, various people called it a "Redan" at the time, so in their opinion it was a Redan.  But, for me the lack of tilt like NB is a critical miss as far as considering it playing like a Redan.  But, if the people of the time called it a Redan, so be it.





Now, back to your regular attack/counterttack programming.

[Sean_A]

Bryan

Because Mac didn't mention other aspects of the Redan doesn't equate to them not being important elements of the original.  What it means is that Mac didn't consider those elements important or he even may have thought they were poor elements of the original that were best eliminated.  Fortunately, these days, an element like blindness has been reconsidered by many and not found a negative feature of design.   

Ciao

[Bryan Izatt]

Sean,

Understand and agree.

A few years ago I made the mistake of saying that Doak's Leven hole at Old Macdonald didn't match up very well with the original.  It didn't, but everyone else wanted to call it a Leven hole because Tom did, so a lot of people think that's what a Leven hole was.

Most named holes are not copies of the original and some don't even match many of the principles, even if we ever agreed on what the principles are.



 

[Bill Brightly]

There is only one playing characteristic of N.B.'s hole that Macdonald did not capture: the element of blindness from the tee. That is a huge difference, for sure, but I would submit that it is far from being the most important feature making N.B.'s such a great hole. IMO, it is all the other features, and Macdonald was true to those. It is easy to focus on the bunkering and right to left tilt and the angle of the green, but it is the downslope of the green, coupled with really firm turf, that makes the hole so challenging.

Merion's third hole has so few of N.B.'s characteristics; I wonder if Macdonald encouraged Wilson to move dirt to shape the hole so it played more like North Berwick's? I also wonder what Wilson thought when he finally saw the original. Was the front left approach ever maintained to accept a running shot that would reach the green?

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