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Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
DMoriarty:
Jeff Brauer wrote above that it appears that the contour map was commissioned and arrived about Feb. 1, 1911. While Wilson wrote of sending a contour map to Piper/Oakley on February 1, there is nothing in the record indicating when Merion first obtained the contour map.
Further, whatever Brauer's experiences with developers who locked themselves into land before considering whether a course would fit, this does not seem to have been the case with Merion. Otherwise, why trouble CBM and HJW to come to Philadelphia to determine whether 18 first class holes could fit on the property they were considering? And why leave the road border flexible? The very existence of the Francis swap indicates that they figured out the routing before setting the boundaries, otherwise there would have had to have been an actual legal exchange of property.
Jeff_Brauer:
David's post highlights some obvious things:
Maybe I don't know when the topo maps arrived, and just assume it was sometime near when it shows up in the record. (And why not, they commissioned it, they needed it for planning, and why would they sit on it until February?)
Of course, neither does David, but it hasn't stopped him from assuming it arrived earlier, was used by CBM, etc., etc. etc. His non answer is also typical and illustrative of his argumentative style, but don't bolster his assumptions at all. There are some inconsistencies in the record that should ideally be resolved to be sure of any theory, which he expertly ignores for the past 7 years.
Lastly, as to his contention that
"Further, whatever Brauer's experiences with developers who locked themselves into land before considering whether a course would fit, this does not seem to have been the case with Merion. Otherwise, why trouble CBM and HJW to come to Philadelphia to determine whether 18 first class holes could fit on the property they were considering? And why leave the road border flexible? "
They asked CBM to the site one day, as a counter point to HDC's bringing Barker in. They wanted their own expert to assist in forming the development. In my post no. 276 I outlined many assumptions David made without support in his original essay, including the fact that David has assumed that CBM told Merion to do things as he did.
Think about it. Offer to buy 120 acres from a developer in an area planned for active development, without a routing plan in place? Sounds more like CBM's first option at NGLA, not his ideal one. And, there is no hint in CBM's follow up letter that they should follow his second NGLA attempt, it only notes that their problem would be to fit 18 first class holes in the property available. He knew the score at Merion, and Merion wasn't NGLA, so he advised accordingly.
And, the fact is, 99% of golf courses buy the land, route the course, figure out the features and then build the course. The Merion record shows June-Dec. 1910 focused on the purchase of the land, Jan-April 1911 focused on the design of the golf course, with construction activity after that. Nothing in their record suggests this was that far out of the ordinary process, including anything CBM wrote.
That is what they say in their own words, and the record says. To extrapolate any further is a stretch of the record. If David thinks differently maybe he will answer some of our questions, with some real facts in the record to support it, rather than his tired assumptions.
MCirba:
--- Quote from: DMoriarty on July 07, 2015, 04:46:14 PM ---Jeff Brauer wrote above that it appears that the contour map was commissioned and arrived about Feb. 1, 1911. While Wilson wrote of sending a contour map to Piper/Oakley on February 1, there is nothing in the record indicating when Merion first obtained the contour map.
Further, whatever Brauer's experiences with developers who locked themselves into land before considering whether a course would fit, this does not seem to have been the case with Merion. Otherwise, why trouble CBM and HJW to come to Philadelphia to determine whether 18 first class holes could fit on the property they were considering? And why leave the road border flexible? The very existence of the Francis swap indicates that they figured out the routing before setting the boundaries, otherwise there would have had to have been an actual legal exchange of property.
--- End quote ---
David,
The question of the when that contour map was created is an interesting one. Considering that CBM caveat-ed his comments to Merion in his July 1st, 1910 letter that he couldn't be certain whether they could fit 18 good holes in the space they were considering without a contour map, I always found it odd that the next map mentioned in any of the Merion correspondence was the Pugh & Hubbard November 15, 1910 map that didn't include contours. All we know for a fact is that they had one by February 1st, 1911, when Hugh Wilson offered to send one to Piper & Oakley. It's very likely that the contour map in question was created by Richard Francis after he was added to the Merion Committee in January 1911.
Jeff Silverman's Merion history book mentions that Wilson's Committee was formed on January 11, 1911, so that would have given Francis about 20 days to create a contour map which seems reasonable to me.
You're also correct that Merion didn't lock themselves into a property before routing the golf course, at least not in the way we would think of it today. H.G. Lloyd and his deep pockets was the reason for that.
From a timeline perspective;
* June 1910 - Rodman Griscom asks his friends Macdonald and Whigham to visit a site in Ardmore that Merion is considering for their new golf course and they follow with a letter that is a somewhat lukewarm endorsement that expresses concerns about the total acreage and suggests they could possibly do it by acquring a bit more land near the clubhouse
* July 1910 - Merion's search committee sends an internal letter mentioning that HDC is willing to sell them "100 acres or whatever would be needed" for their golf course. The letter states that they would likely need 120 acres.
* October/Nov 1910 - HDC acquires the 21 acre Dallas Estate
* November 10, 1910 - Connell of HDC sends Allen Evans of Merion a letter indicating that he's been talking with Lloyd and offers 117 acres to Merion
* November 10, 1910 - Evans responds to Connell that he's interested in buying 117 acres but asks that Connell give Merion a little time to put together a corporation that would do the deal and lease the course to the Merion Cricket Club.
* November 15, 1910 - Evans/Merion sends a letter to its members describing the opportunity to purchase 117 acres that includes a freshly drawn map from Pugh & Hubbard done "for Merion Cricket Club" that the accompanying letter states shows the 117 acres the club has secured. The boundary between golf course and the adjacent real estate is shown by a proposed road connecting the existing Ardmore Avenue and the paved College Avenue and whose location is "approximate"d. The drawing shows no golf holes and modern technology shows the area indicated for the golf course was probably closer to 124 acres.
* December 10, 1910 - H.G. Lloyd, acting on advice of Merion's counsel, because the boundaries for the golf course have not yet been determined, purchases the entire 140 acres of the former Johnson Farm and the 21 acres of the former Dallas Estate from HDC, effectively putting that land under Merion's control but also having fiduciary responsibility to HDC as an officer of that organization. Of that, Merion is still operating under the assumption that they'll build their course on 117 of those acres.
* December 21, 1910 - Cuyler, in letter form to Allen Evans, describes what he has advised Lloyd to purchase, which was a done deal at that point. The letter, in part read; In regard to the title of the property the boundaries of the land to be acquired being as yet uncertain owing to the fact that the golf course has not been definitely located, it was found advisable that the Haverford Development Company should take the title in Mr. Lloyd‘s name, so that the lines could be revised subsequently. I would thank you to let me know as soon as the boundaries have been determined upon.
* January 11, 1911 - Merion forms the committee charged with laying out and building their new golf course
* February 1, 1911 - Hugh Wilson, writing for the Committee and on the advice of CB Macdonald contacts Piper & Oakley seeking agronomic advice. He tells them that Merion has purchased "117 acres".
* March 1911 - Merion's Committee visits NGLA and stays overnight. Descriptions of the activities from both Wilson and the MCC Minutes indicate the first night spent going over the principles of the famous holes from abroad and the next day seeing Macdonald's versions of those holes and concepts through a tour of the NGLA course. A letter to Piper & Oakley also mentioned some pamphlets Macdonald provided related to seed companies.
* April 1911 - CB Macdonald comes back to Merion 10 months after his initial visit for his second and final time. During his visit he looks over the land and helps Merion by selecting one of the Committee's final 5 plans.
* April 19 1911 - At a Board of Governors meeting, the proposed plan is presented but asked for Board action because the plan that had Macdonald's blessing required an additional purchase and a land exchange from Lloyd acting for HDC. The meeting minutes read in part, ; In order to accomplish this, it will be necessary to acquire 3 acres additional. On motion of Mr. Thompson, the following was resolved; Whereas the Golf Committee presented a plan showing a proposed layout of the new Golf Ground which necessitated the exchange of a portion of land already purchased for other land adjoining and the purchase of about three acres additional to cost about $7500.00, and asked the approval of this Board, it was on motion Resolved, that this Board approve of the purchase and exchange, and agree to pay as part of the rental the interest on the additional purchase.
* July 1911 - Merion purchases 120.01 acres from HDC. With the inclusion of the lease of 3 acres of railroad land which we know from Francis happened sometime prior to his brainstorm, the new Merion course would require a total of 123 acres.
MCirba:
--- Quote from: DMoriarty on July 07, 2015, 02:46:59 PM ---Mike, Looking at his old posts, I think that has been Bryan's position all along.
Francis described an area "about" 130x190 yards, the location of the 15th tee and 16th green. This roughly, but not exactly, describes the area between the Haverford College property and the road. A 130x190 yd. rectangle is 5.1 acres. So Merion swapped about 5 acres of land next to the Haverford College property for "land now covered by fine homes along Golf House road."
The white rectangle below is 130x190 yards and measures 5.1 acres. The orange rectangle also measures 5.1 acres. I am not suggesting that these represented exactly what was swapped because obviously they do not. But I do think they give a rough idea of the swap that Francis was describing.
Apparently, prior to the swap, Merion was trying to fit the golf course on land which excluded the white triangle from consideration. The swap allowed them to use the area in the white triangle, and thus resolved a routing problem, but they gave up land across what is now Golf House road to get access to the land in the white triangle. I don't think it is any more complicated than that.
__________________________________
Also Mike, thanks for further demonstrating the extent of your reasoning powers in that last little flight of fancy. It is too idiotic to take seriously, and this includes your strange conjecture that the quarry could only be approached from the north. So much for the 17th hole!
--- End quote ---
David,
If that's Bryan's theory then I'm really not sure how it makes more sense to include a 5.1 acre rectangle than a 4.8 acre semi-triangle which is what's there in actuality?
Your drawing indicates much of that rectangle crossing the boundary across Golf House Road into the neighboring estates. "Most", or "close" only counts in horse shoes, not real estate transactions.
Regarding my "idiotic" contention that the quarry could only be reasonably approached from the north, of course one could stand on the edge of the quarry cliff and play down into it on a par three as they do on 17 today. That's hardly "approaching" the quarry but instead standing atop the ledge.
But instead of me responding to your continual and ineffectual insults, I'm feeling like I'm again channeling the original Committee participants...aaarrgggghhh...
Mr. Francis: Mr Lloyd, we have a problem.
Mr Lloyd: And what would that be my dear Mr. Francis?
Mr. Francis: You know that land that Mr. Macdonald told you and Mr. Griscom would be suitable for 18 good holes? Well, I've been pouring over maps and...well...you know how he told you that the quarry can be made much of? Well, I've been trying to make much of it and not much is happening but I'll keep trying much more.
Mr. Lloyd: For heaven's sake man, calm down...what do you mean?
Mr. Francis: Well, for starter's the quarry is fricking HUGE! I mean, it's 250 yards wide and 150 yards long! And it's deep with a steep cliff wall on two sides so I can't come at it from the west or the south. And the east side is more land owned by the railroad and we really don't want to deal with those bastards again right?
Mr. Lloyd: I won't have you using that type of profanity in my house. Why some of those railroad robber baron...er...railroad officials are among the finest upstanding citizens of this community. And afterall, they did help you locate those first 13 holes by leasing us those 3 acres if you recall.
Mr. Francis: (frustrated) I know, I know...I'm sorry.
Mr. Lloyd: Tut tut, there now my good man.
Mr. Francis: Ok, so back to the problem. Our problem. We've got those 13 holes and then we go north with 14. I'm envisioning a big, uphill, challenging par four that will set the stage for an amazing finish. And then...
Mr. Lloyd: And then??
Mr. Francis: Nothing.
Mr. Lloyd: Nothing?
Mr. Francis: Nope. Nothing but quarry. Oh, you guys left me 150 yards to the left of it and a hefty 80 yards beyond it...thanks for nothing!
Mr. Lloyd: But surely that young whippersnapper Mr. Wilson can help solve this problem?
Mr. Francis: Who? That guy? Is he still a member? Oh, that's right....But he won't even be appointed to head a Committee for months yet, and he's a Princeton fellow don't you know, so I have my doubts.
Mr. Lloyd: True Dat.
Mr. Francis: So here's what I'm thinking. We get the 14th green up near that quarry wall and then for the next hole we can stand right on the edge and play to a par three on the quarry floor below. But then how do we get down there?
Mr. Lloyd: I'll have my workmen build a large spiral staircase down into the depths! Problem solved!
Mr. Francis: Ok, now we're cooking with kerosene! Then, we need to get out so I'm thinking another par three in the opposite direction to the top of the quarry cliff wall for 16. Kinda blind, but we can call it an Alps or something that will keep Macdonald happy.
Mr. Lloyd: Will that require an additional staircase?
Mr. Francis: Perhaps. But I still have two holes left. Would it be considered gauche by future GCA afficianados to have three par threes in a row?
Mr. Lloyd: Some of them might think it's cool because it breaks the rules. I can see that Naccarato guy asking for the distance to the quarry wall, just to watch his tee ball deflect back at him at 200 mph! ;)
Mr. Francis: Ok, then we go with the three par threes in a row. That will make Mr. Macdonald pleased i'd imagine as we would be certainly making much of the quarry! But then...
Mr. Lloyd: Spit it out Francis!
Mr. Francis: But then we still need to get back to the clubhouse and my 17th hole ends down in the depths of the quarry. Do you think Mrs. Biddle and the other members will like to finish with a 200 yard carry out of the quarry and a long downhill run to the green?
Mr. Lloyd: Probably not, but too many members are taking up the game anyways. That finish you describe ought to discourage a good number of them!
Mr. Francis: Yes sir.. I knew we could solve this problem. By the way, how did Wilson get that plum future committee assignment? We do all the work and I just have this sinking feeling that history is going to give him all the credit.
Mr. Lloyd: He has pictures.
DMoriarty:
Your last post is apt. Your analysis has always been more about fantasy than reality. The same applies to many of the items in your timeline.
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