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Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
MCirba:
David,
Yes, I'm making stuff up in assuming that CB Macdonald would have advised the Merion Committee during his June 1910 visit to get as much land around the quarry as possible so that they could use it for golf holes. The fact that he recognized its potential, even mentioning it first and foremost in his letter to Merion after his June 1910 site visit suggests to me that the only way to utilize that potential was to acquire surrounding land that could be used for golf.
One thing that I don't recall ever being mentioned here before is the simple fact that from a golf standpoint, the quarry could only be reasonably approached from one direction, the north. If approached from the south, or west, it would be like playing off a cliff so dramatic is the fall and played from the east is impossible because the quarry extends to that eastern boundary.
So, there really is only one place the 16th hole could have realistically been approached from. I think Macdonald and anyone else out on that property for 30 seconds or more would have instinctively recognized this.
So yes, in my flight of fancy I'd imagine the following conversation;
CBM: (standing at the site of today's 17th green) Aye, laddies...this quarry is quite dramatic. Much can be made of it for golf purposes.
Merion: Oh wow...and here we thought we might have to fill the whole thing up, Charlie. Thanks for the idea.
CBM: I'm assuming ye lads are bright enough bulbs to insist that the Developers give you the surrounding available land which stretches several hundred yards north of here, yes?
Merion: (looking at each other nervously) Well, actually, we thought that particular land would make for some nice quarry-side housing units.
CBM: What?@?!@
Merion: (embarrassed) Yes, in fact, don't back up or you'll be trespassing.
CBM: Egads, you dunderheads!!...how in Hades did you all get your Ivy League degrees??
DMoriarty:
Mike, Looking at his old posts, I think that has been Bryan's position all along.
Francis described an area "about" 130x190 yards, the location of the 15th tee and 16th green. This roughly, but not exactly, describes the area between the Haverford College property and the road. A 130x190 yd. rectangle is 5.1 acres. So Merion swapped about 5 acres of land next to the Haverford College property for "land now covered by fine homes along Golf House road."
The white rectangle below is 130x190 yards and measures 5.1 acres. The orange rectangle also measures 5.1 acres. I am not suggesting that these represented exactly what was swapped because obviously they do not. But I do think they give a rough idea of the swap that Francis was describing.
Apparently, prior to the swap, Merion was trying to fit the golf course on land which excluded the white triangle from consideration. The swap allowed them to use the area in the white triangle, and thus resolved a routing problem, but they gave up land across what is now Golf House road to get access to the land in the white triangle. I don't think it is any more complicated than that.
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Also Mike, thanks for further demonstrating the extent of your reasoning powers in that last little flight of fancy. It is too idiotic to take seriously, and this includes your strange conjecture that the quarry could only be approached from the north. So much for the 17th hole!
DMoriarty:
You keep substantively changing your previous posts, so it is a bit hard to keep up. You added the following question to one of your posts above:
Do you believe that the course routing was complete once Francis had his brainstorm? If his brainstorm was before that November 15, 1910 Land Plan was created, as you contend, what more needed to be done as far as routing the course after he made room for 15 and 16 and created the site for the 16th green a day or two after the brainstorm? After all, the first 13 holes had already been routed prior to then and they clearly knew where they wanted 15 and 16 to go.
As for fitting the first 13 holes, back in June of 1910 CBM had suggested that they add the land which made this possible. Thus Francis's description of fitting the 13 holes"with the help of a little ground on the north side of Ardmore Avenue."
I think the Francis modification was most likely one of the "many different courses" which had been laid out on the land prior to Wilson's visit to NGLA, and it sounds like the one CBM ultimately approved. Another would have been whatever they were trying to do before the swap, which may have been suggested by CBM. Barker's plan was another.
Jeff_Brauer:
Mike,
I understand your quarry point, and that to use it twice for anything other than a tee fronting hazard, it would need multiple approaches. As an architect, I really think in broader terms early in the routing, I.e., is there enough space to fit 18 holes? CBM hints at the same, and the logic of what David is saying is that prudent men, given a minimum of acreage, would probably do a test routing before the purchase. It doesn't always happen, and they may have felt comfortable knowing the parties would give them some wiggle room.
That said, I always got the impression that in June, something in the Barker routing showed them they needed more room south of Ardmore in the form of the Dallas Estate. Basically, the land was 4 holes wide in rectangular form. To get 12 holes, it would need to be 3 holes long, using an average hole length of about 350 yards, just to have a chance to fit the required holes in, even without considering topography.
It doesn't take us long, looking at the finished product, to realize that they needed to get 7 holes in, and needed 2 wide by almost 4 long, or 4 wide at two long. The final routing is a combo of both. Even a quick look probably would show they needed that property up to College to have a chance. The question is when.
Other than the inconsistencies noted from the record, and one more I forgot to mention last time - it appears the topo map was commissioned and arrived about Feb. 1, 1911. I wonder if they could/would route without one? CBM seemed to think topo info was necessary, both in his letter and in how he worked at NGLA. I assume they followed his advice.
And, given the secrecy they worked under in buying the land, I am pretty sure no survey crew was sent out as a visible sign they were interested, until the Dallas Estate land was at least under option, if not fully under contract. Was that August, or October?
Like I say, the theory of a rough test routing, is possible. In my world, it does happen, maybe 25% of the time, and in other cases, the owner just presents us with property - for better or worse. It would have made sense, including identifying the "triangle" in rough shape, but did it happen, given the other points of the historic record?
Jeff_Brauer:
--- Quote from: DMoriarty on July 07, 2015, 03:05:32 PM ---
As for fitting the first 13 holes, back in June of 1910 CBM had suggested that they add the land which made this possible . Thus Francis's description of fitting the 13 holes"with the help of a little ground on the north side of Ardmore Avenue."
I think the Francis modification was most likely one of the "many different courses" which had been laid out on the land prior to Wilson's visit to NGLA, and it sounds like the one CBM ultimately approved. Another would have been whatever they were trying to do before the swap, which may have been suggested by CBM. Barker's plan was another.
--- End quote ---
Agree with this being possible, but then I still think we have to discount the blasting for the 16th hole soon thereafter. If it was still an active quarry, then it might be possible as there would be no cost to MCC. If it had gone dormant, then MCC wouldn't have gone to the expense to blast on their $40K construction budget unless they were sure of that hole location. Either way, if the routing wasn't firm, blasting makes little sense as the topo might be used differently for another hole design.
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