GolfClubAtlas.com > Golf Course Architecture
Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
MCirba:
David,
Chill out. I sincerely thanked you for taking the time to do that and you have to admit that it's an open question why they would create an artificial border where previously none existed at the north end of the Johnson Farm property given the quarry's location if that's your belief.
My west of the clubhouse line was meant to be humorous.
Most importantly, I'm trying to understand how they secured 117 acres in November 1910, still had 117 acres in February 1911, and then needed three more of HDC land by July 1911.
None of our theories effectively address that question and the math doesn't work in anything we've collectively conceived to date so I appreciate the ongoing discussion and attempts to figure this out.
**ADDED** I'm definitely willing to consider that this map might be based on either an earlier HDC Land Plan crafted before November 15th, 1910 and may even be one that was crafted AFTER that November 1910 map with the Approximate Location of Road.
I say this because the April 19th 1911 MCC Minutes tell us that the Committee did numerous plans prior to their visit to NGLA so who among us can say what any of those plans looked like with any degree of certainty, or what portions of the Johnson Farmland they were located on?
DMoriarty:
This "artificial border" stuff is just plain nonsense. HDC not only controlled the Johnson farm, they controlled everything west of it as well. So whatever western "border" they created to set off the golf course would be "artificial."
Francis indicated that the location of the 15th green and 16th tee were not originally considered to be part of the golf course. Jim, Bryan, and I believe him. You don't.
Here are the western section of the Dallas estate and Johnson Farm properties, with the area containing the 15 green the 16th tee cut off. Looks like a capital "L" sitting on its side.
DMoriarty:
As for the 117 vs. 120 acres. We don't know. Your theory makes no sense for reasons I have repeatedly explained. My guess is that HDC and Merion agreed to the location of the dividing road, agreed to the price for purchase of that land, built the road, then when they did the legal description for the deed it came out to 120.01 acres.
But, as I said above, all this comes down to one thing. Francis told us that that the location of the 15th tee and 16th green were not originally part of the golf course land. Some of us believe him. You don't.
MCirba:
David,
Sure, in theory they could have gone further west off the Johnson Farmland but my point about them creating an artificial boundary to the north of the former Johnson property is that it seems counter-intuitive to what they were told by Macdonald at the very top of his letter;
Mr. Whigham and I discussed the various merits of the land you propose buying, and we think it has some very desirable features. The quarry and the brooks can be made much of.
If Macdonald was told by Merion that the land they were considering stopped just past today's 17th green don't you think they might have suggested that Merion try to get additional land north of there? It would seem fairly obvious in retrospect, especially if he was told that HDC controlled the whole shebang, aside from the Haverford College parcel.
I know what Jim believes but I'm not sure about Bryan who I suspect likes to shoot holes in both our theories and would possibly say he's looking for more information before making a determination, but I may be wrong.
I also wouldn't characterize my position as saying the land for the present 16th tee and 15 were always part of the golf course. The most plausible explanation IMO based on all of the evidence is that much of the land of those two holes (and the #14 green) was too narrow for the holes they planned up in that neck of the course and Mr. Francis recalled the final dimension that were created, 130x190.
One reason I'm being a stickler for the math here is that we know they purchased more land they they originally secured. If, for instance, that new map you produced indeed showed land they were working on prior to the Francis exchange, I don't understand how it could have been an even swap to trade the land not used west of the clubhouse for the parcel you indicated above the Haverford College southern boundary. As I mentioned, I would think the size of the parcel across from the clubhouse that would need to be traded would have been roughly triple the size of the triangle they would have traded for. What's your thoughts on that?
DMoriarty:
You've distorted Francis's words beyond recognition.
As for what Bryan thinks, see his post 330.
As for what you think Macdonald should have said, it is all self-serving speculation on your part and adds nothing productive to the conversation.
As for the the 117 acres vs. 120, I know what they said, but I've seen nothing other than the 1910 plan identifying the land they supposedly secured, and that plan has more than 117 acres included in the golf course. In my opinion they thought they were purchasing the land equal to identified on that map, which is why the sent it to their members. (This was your opinion too, before you knew it wasn't 117 acres.)
As for your theory about 3x the land, I don't know what you think you are looking at. Look again at the image I just posted showing 120 acres. Merion eventually purchased 120 acres. So the net difference between what is shown and what they bought is zero.
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