[John Conley]

Paul:

The Fernandina Beach Municipal - on Amelia Island, for those who don't know - is a very good course.  I don't know if it qualifies for others' "Most Underrated", because I don't know if it has ever received any "Best Course on Amelia Island" accolades or what they might be expecting if they visited.

I'm disappointed, though, that you backed off when pressed and pretty much said you were kidding to even mention it.  It is pretty good.

I'd have to say a solid 5th Deciler, with a chance for 4th.  

The place has 27 holes, with nines that should be called "Long", "Tricky", and "Short" or "Easy".  I only played the Long and Tricky nines, but found them very enjoyable.  One is nearly 3600 with two very long par 5s and pretty basic design.  Flat and long.  The other is about 3300, with several tight doglegs and a good number of pretty holes.

The best part of a round at Fernandina Beach is that you play with full knowledge that your green fee would only cover about three or four holes at some of the other courses nearby.  I found it much more enjoyable than playing behind sixteen Goldman Sachs bankers conferencing over the weekend.

Since it seems to be underappreciated, I'll offer it up for the follwing rankings:

* Top 10 Municipal Courses in Florida
* Best value on Amelia
* Most variety between front and back 9

[TEPaul]

Conley:

I'm sorry you're disappointed in whatever I said about the Fernindina Beach Municipal. In the future it would probably be a good thing for you to state whatever you feel about any golf course and that I do the same and just leave it at that.

[noonan]

NCR South is a great course....no water in play.....but a pleasure to play.

JK

[ChipOat]

Bay Hill gets my vote.  See my (premature) post on the "Most Overrated" thread for details.

Not sure I think Rolling Green is underrated anymore - at least not in Philadelphia golf circles.  Flynn is probably underrated nationally, though.  Tom and Wayne will fix that, I'm sure.

[Matt_Ward]

NAF:

I believe I can make a case that you might have underrated the qualities of Plainfield's 7th hole when compared to the qualities of PB's.

The tee shot at #7 at Plainfield requires both distance and accuracy -- plus the approach must deal with a green that falls away from the fairway. I think a good case can be made that the holes are a draw.

You also give a hole advantage to #13 to PB? I'll concede you that the green at PB is more demanding but the tee shot and the approach at #13 at Plainfield isn't excatly chop liver. I'd say you're looking at a draw at best.

In any event -- the contest between the two as you point out is quite close -- how many other courses would offer PB such a close contest? Given that fact -- it only bolsters my contention how Plainfield is often "underrated" by a great many people who don't see the course that often or somehow place it at lower level simply because it flies below many radar screens.

Paul Richards:

On my next venture to Chicago I look forward to seeing Beverly because if you say it's the equal or better than what was done at Skokie than it's something I must see with own eyes. Thanks for sharing.

[Paul Richards]

Matt:

you said:
>On my next venture to Chicago I look forward to seeing Beverly because if you say it's the equal or better than what was done at Skokie than it's something I must see with own eyes. Thanks for sharing.  
 


I'd love to host you.  I am confident you will be impressed!

[redanman]

Redanman, Matt and John Lovito (who I played Pebble with last week)...I write this with no bias but having played Pebble about 6 times now and Plainfield about 7 or 8 (pre and post Gil's work) I think I'd like to take the challenge of match play.


#1-Plainfield 1 up
#2-Plainfield 2up
#3-Plainfield 1up
#4-Plainfield 1up
#5-Plainfield 1up
#6-All square-PB
#7 Pebble Beach 1up
#8 PB 2up
#9 PB 3up
#10 PB 4up
#11 PB 3up
#12 PB 2up
#13 PB 2up
#14 PB 3up
#15 PB 2up
#16 PB 1up
#17 AS
#18 PB 1up

Pretty damn close..The only question I find on this is whether #4 at PB squeaks by #4 at Plainfield and how one views #13.

1-P
2-P
3-probably a half, both are OK
4-P
5-half or P
6-PB
7-PB more famous, really cool, no doubt an icon. Probably PB, but a half possible, (P#7 great hole, both shots;  needs a seaside location and some fog) Actually quite close if you throw out all preconceptions.
8-PB
9-PB
10-PB
11-P
12-P
13-half, maybe PB
14-PB
15-P
16-P easily
17-half or P
18-PB  "Finest finishing hole in golf" is good enough to win.

Even or PB 1 up,  to 3 up Planifield depending on how you score it.

Sorry, couldn't resist.  Plainfield is way underappreciated. Just imagine it on a foggy day............ with #13 barking in the background.

[Paul Richards]

Shivas:

I cannot disagree with you.  However, I have played Cruden Bay myself and I can tell you it is absolutely spectacular and deserves any accolades that come its way.  

BTW, it is also where I fired a 43-33, so I do have some fond memories from there as well!!

Old Head does have some of the most spectacular views of any golf course.  But is it a great golf course?  Maybe.  But if it belongs on any Top 100 list, it should be much closer to #100 than to #1, IMHO.

[BCrosby]

1. Western Gailes. Easily as good as Cruden Bay. Why it doesn't receive more attention is beyond me. A couple of mediocre holes, but a course that holds up against any of the best in Scotland. If you are in the Prestwick area, it should not be missed.

2. North Fulton (Atlanta). Not a great course, but certainly undeserving of the ridicule it gets areound here.

Bob

[ForkaB]

Even though I have already voted, I will add my support to Western Gailes, which I think is as good or better than its neighbours, Prestwick and Troon.

[THuckaby2]

Concur re Western Gailes - I'd also put it above Troon Old and Prestwick and at a par with Turnberry Ailsa... and also concur re Applebrook, which likely doesn't appear on ratings too much yet just because it's so new and so few people have seen it to date...

But Carnoustie?

Golf Mag has that at #22 in the world.  Looking at what's rated above it, it's hard for me to call it "underrated."  It's a damn good course, rated about right, I'd say.

TH

[frank_D]

i don't know why i want MORE competition to make a tee time on this daily fee -  but i'll provide my answer with the understanding the reader cannot book any sunday at 8:48

colony west - tamarac - FL - championship course

[currently rated **** GD places to play 5th edition]
[$60 florida resident w/end rate (in season)]
[previously (1980's) listed in the GD top 100]

[ForkaB]

Tom H

Just as the difference between a scratch and a 2 handicap is MILES greater than the difference between (say) a 7 and a 9, so is the difference between a course "ranked" 2 and 22 miles different than the diffference between ones ranked 72 and 92.  IMO, Carnoustie is a better course than many of those currently in the "Top Ten" and that it is not there, to me, is a very significant underrating.

[THuckaby2]

Rich:

OK, fair enough.  I've looked at Golf Mag's top 100 and out of the 21 ranked ahead of Carnoustie, I can only see a few that Carnoustie might be better than, by my take.  I also see the differences between 1 and 22 being pretty darn small... put these entire 22 in a shaker and mix them up and you won't ever be that far off.

Obviously we disagree on all of this... no hassles, no biggie.  The main thing is I believe we both agree that Carnoustie is a damn fine golf course.  I'll get to see it again for myself come July!

TH

[Bob_Farrell]

Matt:

These forums are always interesting. What is of interest to me that based on the comments I see, Plainfield may be less underrated than you, or I, feel. I have long thought, since my first trip around it in about 1975, thaat it was the finest golf course in NJ that I have played. I haven't played PVCC, but I have been tovirtually all of the other notabel courses.

The comparison with PBGL was interesting and in most instances fair, but it's hard to compare things like #7 when they are so dramatically different. I think Plainfield's 7th is extremely difficult. From the back tees, it's more than that. I'd rather have to make a par at PBGL #7 to win something than to have to make a par at Plainfield's.

Nevertheless, this topic made for great script. I agree with the individual who mentioned Colony West in FL. What a hidden gem that was. But I'd also like to add Hammock Dunes. It's so far from anywhere that no one takes notice of it. And as far as overseas I'd have to mention Nairn and Tain. They seem to be forgotten when the talk gets up to that area and Dornoch and Cruden Bay take precedence.

BF

[Slag_Bandoon]

 Bayside in Ogallala, Nebraska -  A Proctor and Axeland piece.  
I found the front nine to be a wonderland but, according to the help, most people see the back nine as their favorite.  Perhaps in the aging of this course it will become a "Go to" course.  Whereas it is a tale of two courses, it has great golf everywhere, nonetheless.  It has bold design and views.  Subtle greens and whacked-out targets.   It's needs are in its maintenance now and I hope the management sees that.  It needs a few more trees cut on that par 5 of doom. Also bunkers need better upkeep. Walks are sometimes a chore (10 to 11).  Ron Whitten did not glow about it and perhaps he's right about the land not being the best but I think it is a great introduction for those that don't study golf architecture to see some fabulous work while also giving some terrific views.  

[Matt_Ward]

Bob F:

I don't doubt for one minute your basic comment that a course of the caliber of Plainfield is stretching it a bit to say it's underrated since it has been a member of any top 100 listing for quite some time.

My point is a rather simple one -- very few people (across the country) have seen the merits of the course on a fairly regular basis. I'm not speaking about the folks who jump on one time.

Plainfield is a gem in the manner by which it integrates all phases of the game. Again, minus the let down with the final hole you are fully tested in both power, accuracy and touch around and on the greens. I can easily make a case that the starting hole at Plainfield is easily among the finest in America and that includes the opener at PV. Ditto the qualitis of the one-shot short par-3 11th and the supreme challenge of the par-5 12th.

The purists on GCA do understand what I am speaking about. Unfortunately, many of the people who rate for the key magazines seem to be hellbent in keeping Plainfield at the ranking of 50 or higher. That amazes me no end given the names of other metro NY / NJ courses that are ahead of it!

So, you are right -- a course in the top 100 is clearly acknowledged. I just believe that it belongs higher than what it is.

Regarding the comparisons between PB and Plainfield. I have to say in fairness to PB that when the course is at its fastest and firmest and the wind is up the edge goes to PB without question. Minus such a situation I see the difference between the two as being quite close.

[redanman]

Regarding the comparisons between PB and Plainfield. I have to say in fairness to PB that when the course is at its fastest and firmest and the wind is up the edge goes to PB without question.

Two or all three days in October when that happens?

[Bob_Farrell]

Matt:

It would appear that you and I are fairly close in our appreciation of Plainfield. Maybe we should wish that it would fall out of the top 100 so people wouldn't look to go there and we would have more opportunity for ourselves to play there!!

PBGL in its firm and fast state proved how difficult it was during the Open that Kite won. But if the greens at Plainfield are firm and fast, then it becomes a real bear as you know.

I have been lucky enough to play there mostly in tournaments. i.e., NJSGA Open, Donald Ross Invitational, etc., when they had the greens running really fast. That is a true challenge, especially if you get above the pin. The course shortens up, but putting and chipping become essential. Conversely when it rains and it gets wet, the carry factor is crucial. Without roll #s 2, 7, 13, & even 17 become long irons. And foregt hitting the par 5's in 2.

Just an overall wonderful, enjoyable experience every time.

BF

[richardmyers]

I am new to this list.

Has there been any discussion on this site of a course that I have long thought was greatly underappreciated--Kirtland Country Club near Cleveland, Ohio. I have not played this course in many years but I was fortunate to play this course many times in the early 1970s when I caddied there and also worked in the pro-shop.  

This is a beautiful course and a pure joy to play. I think this is a more interesting course than Canterbury. Kirtland has a wonderful variety of holes and lots of subtle features.  

[JohnV]

For those in the Cleveland area who want to see Kirtland, it will holding a US Open Sectional Qualifier (second stage) June 2nd.  A nice chance to go out and watch good players on a good course.

[Matt Ward]

redanman:

As an FYI it's always interesting to know how people rate PB and Olympic when Opens are played there because the set-ups are so vastly different than ordinary play.

Must times at Olympic from the off-Open years I've played the tee shot will hit and roll very little. When the Open is played it becomes a demanding exercise to keep the ball on the short grass where there is any amount of pitch.

Ditto the same with PB.

I've seen both courses in these situations and when they play firm and fast the test becomes a rather severe one but one I always enjoy encountering.

[ChipOat]

Had to resurrect this thread to correct an oversight on my part.

The New Course at St. Andrew's.  It's as good as Western Gailes, Cruden Bay and Nairn IMO.

Nobody ever mentions it.  How many visitors even bother to play it?  Elie and Crail get more traffic than TNC from touring golfers in Fife.

Rich Goodale (and others) - what think you?

[ian]

Gleneagles (Kings), many great holes, but ignored for not being a links course. Braid is an architect that is generally ignored too.

[mike_beene]

I like the New,but some of the holes really run together in my mind.Western Gailes,if it ever hosted an Open,would be on all kinds of best lists.I say its the most underated course in the world.Think how good 5 thru 13 is.I think it's the most interesting tee ball course I have played.

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