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Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Beyond Difficult
« on: June 13, 2003, 05:21:25 AM »
There are many examples of difficult golf courses that can still be played day in day out with much enjoyment - Congressional and Bethpage and others come to mind.  Stern but fair green complexes hold my interest without deflating me.  

What are examples of architectural features designed into a golf course that act to go beyond difficult and more into the unfair?  There are courses I have played that seem unfair to me and I don't want to return to them.  A blind water hazard closely abutting a green is one such example to me.

JC
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaB

Re: Beyond Difficult
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2003, 05:40:40 AM »
Shivas,

Why don't you just hit a six iron with a little less spin...you are talking about "everyday play" so I would think you would know better.....I thought you were one of the champions of not dumbing down golf....dissapointedly yours,  Barn.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaB

Re: Beyond Difficult
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2003, 05:57:41 AM »
Quote
There are courses I have played that seem unfair to me and I don't want to return to them.  A blind water hazard closely abutting a green is one such example to me.

JC

Persy pussonified....don't want to play a blind water hazard abutting a green after you already know it is there...another example of where in "everyday play" you are given the opportunity to deal with the anxiety of a poorly executed shot...remember..you are not talking off of the tee...this is a shot most likely with a short iron when you know that hitting it long or such is going to cost you all of one stroke and a ball...tell me how that is such a bad thing for a member of a private course that plays "everyday"...I think the thrill is worth a ball and a stroke...but thats just the value of shot to me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

JakaB

Re: Beyond Difficult
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2003, 04:30:16 PM »
I've killed plenty a thread in my day....but this is a first for quasi-architectural commentary....its not fair.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beyond Difficult
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2003, 06:40:28 PM »
Jake - Disagree with me - that's perfectly fine and the essence of this discussion site.  But do so with your own examples/retorts of architectural features that make a course "beyond fair" and you will lend credibility to your arguments.  JC
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Babbitt

Re: Beyond Difficult
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2003, 07:25:05 PM »
JakaB,
Calling someone a pussy is a new low in discourse on this site.  Your affected and tired "controversial" character persona wears thin sometimes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaB

Re: Beyond Difficult
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2003, 07:52:38 PM »
I just don't think I'm wrong on this one...unfair simply becomes quirk when viewed on a day to day basis...if you have a problem with forced carries you need to move up...if you have a problem with unfinishable pin positions you either need to pick up or have the super pack up...if you don't want to hit the ball in a water hazard abuting a green..hit the ball where it is not...unfair has no place in intelligent discussions as does either pussumclature...I never meant to insult the person just the premise.   Sorry but this apology will have to wait.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaB

Re: Beyond Difficult
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2003, 08:08:37 PM »
At least take some comfort in that I feel bad about what I said but have taken too much crap for posts I have erased...so it stays.   I can live with anyone who thinks a course or hole is too difficult...because I don't really know what they want out of a golfing experience..where or how or what the may want challenged or rewarded...but I just get pissed when I hear a feature is unfair...and I let Jonathan get to me...sometimes you just have to take an easy route and use one more stroke than a person of greater talent...thats not unfair...its just everdamn day we wake up.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beyond Difficult
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2003, 07:26:53 AM »
While I expect a slam from JakeB for saying this, I'll do so anyway.  The 18th at Whistling Staits may be the most unfair hole in the game of golf.  We just played WS last week (terrible condition) and I was lucky enough to see the back nine with the teaching pro and committee chairman for the setup of next year's PGA.  At the 18th, they took us back to the new back tee (uphill 260 carry for this 525yd par 4 finisher). The pro said he did not think Corey Pavin would be able to reach the fairway.  And if Pavin were lucky enough to get to the edge of the fairway he is faced with another 265yd shot all forced carry.  If the hole is too much for a PGA pro how about the rest of us?  Play from whatever tees you want - Dye is simply asking too much.

J (here come the bombs) C
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Beyond Difficult
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2003, 08:57:42 AM »
Jonathan:

You presume the PGA will play Whistling Straits from the tips on all four days. If you search your memory banks when the PGA first went to a Dye course back in '88 at Oak Tree the leadership of the PGA balked at playing the course from the tips and the resulting no-wind event resulted in some low scores.

Personally, I just wish the PGA did borrow a bit of the USGA Darth Vader blood and played at least two of the round at max length because the boys on Tour have enough sites to shoot the low numbers that they do. If the men on the Tour are "that good" then let them show it when they head to Wisconsin for the PGA.

Regarding your initial thrust I have to say when a course features water down one side of a hole and OB immediately on the right to protect homes. Want examples. Just head to Palm Beach County and a host of others in the Sunshine State!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Beyond Difficult
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2003, 10:42:06 AM »
Jonathan- To your thrust, I would agree on principle in most cases, but will site the situation where there is water water everywhere (ala pga west stadium's backnine #11,14(?) where one can only assume the lake raps around the rear and is therefore blind. Predictable but still blind. Also, I would like to site Press Maxwell's use of some semi-blind (depending on your approach angle, both vertically and horizontially) small ponds on the two par fives at Conquistador's front in Cortez, Co. They are short of the green and are so well placed that I found the one on the very first hole, trying to a bump and run from the right treeline rough. It was my own damn fault I didn't bother to checkout what appeared to be an appraoch ramp.  I felt harried having had to look for others balls, then my own. My point being that, on a par five, where a third shot is usually a short iron or wedge, these water hazards were strategically placed and by being somewhat concealed from lower elevations (3rd shot) were noticiable from a spot I usually avoid, long and down the middle where  anyone going for it in two would have knowledge of forethought.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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