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Dan_Belden (Guest)

Re: A driver par 3
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2003, 03:10:00 PM »
 All right guys here is question.   The par 3, 4th at Brookside in Canton originaly measured 218 yards from the championship course.  This yardage was taken from a card in the grill room with none other than Walter Hagen's signature on it.  The current championship yardage is 222 yards.  It is a classic example of a Ross par 3 and a half.  The hole plays considerably downhill over a creek that is about 30 yards short of the green.  The creek also runs along the entire right side of the green.  On the left side of the green is slope that will kick the ball back onto the green.  
   When I played my college golf in the late 80's and early 90's I almost always hit a one or two iron off the tee.  Now it is usually a four or five iron to the green.  The green committe does not want to lenghten the championship tee for fear too many players will have to hit woods.  ( For those of you not familiar we are closing the course this fall for a rather large restoration at the hands of Brian Silva.)   I personally feel this would be a wonderful place to lengthen the hole by about 20 or 30 yards.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: A driver par 3
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2003, 04:22:03 PM »
One of my clubs has a neat little 260 yard hole, uphill to a small skyline green.  Large and open false front leading to a small back plateau, with a 3-4 foot drop off at the back.  Heavily bunkered left and some nice little humps and hollows to the right.  Reachable with a 3-wood or even 1-2 iron if the wind is behind and the ground is F&F, but usually a full-blown driver that you have to hit off whatever are the titanium equivalent of "screws" to make the putting surface.

It's a great little hole, and probably the easiest on the course...............if you beleive in the concept of "par," for this little beauty is a "par" 4.............
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A driver par 3
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2003, 06:07:22 PM »
There is a hard but good one at the Concord,#7, that plays 260ish. Volcano or plateau style green sitting around 20' higher than the surround with a bunker dug against the right forequarter and a sheer, rock infested drop-off to the left. The green is large and tilts to the center from the left side and a bit that way from the right with a slight cant from back to front. You can try to run one up but it's better to lay up at the base of the hill and wedge in if you don't want to try the driver.
There is at least 100yds. of room behind the tee. ::)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A driver par 3
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2003, 06:49:01 PM »
No. 8 at Oakmont -- now being increased to 285-yards (or close) according to the Fazio staff. Yes, I think they are remarkable holes, these par-3.5's.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
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Jim Sweeney

Re: A driver par 3
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2003, 08:10:19 PM »
I throw my hat in with those who prefer a little wiggle room on the par threes. One poster wrote, "every par three is a driver for somebody." True, but if that's the only club he can hit under normal conditions, perhaps he should consider moving forward one tee!

The 7th at the University of New Mexico Champoinship Course (or "the South," as it is still known to us old timers), is a 230 yd hole. Although it is a level hole, one hits over an arroyo. The last ten yards or so of fairway is steeply uphill, so the shot is all carry.

Scratch golfers normally hit four woods to three irons at the 5200 foot altitude. However, the hole plays due south into the summer wind, and it is not unusual to hit a pretty heavy driver under those conditions.

The strength of the hole is in its flexability.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A driver par 3
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2003, 08:14:36 PM »
Jim -- You failed to fill us all in on the most evil of red Lawrence's designs here: The blaster green falls AWAY to the rear!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jim Sweeney

Re: A driver par 3
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2003, 08:32:00 PM »
Forrest-

I also misrepresented the hole #- it is No.8, not 7, although the nines are reversed for competition, so many people will know this hole as No.17.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A driver par 3
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2003, 05:58:23 AM »

Guys,

Carnoustie's #16 is surely a driver for many, especially against the wind.

I'm surprised it has not been mentioned prior to this....

What a great hole, and what a time in the round to play it...

I've played the course once, and needed driver to get to the front of the green. Around 250yds from memory, but played more like 320, into a wind. (Great course balance, as #17 needed only Driver, SW, but that;s another story).

IMO, #16 is good design. Open front, allowing the run-up to the pin. There is also sufficient elasticity to the hole, so as to still demand an exacting, long shot, even with a slightly helping breeze. Into the wind, the hole demands great nerve, and even beter execution.....

Matthew
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A driver par 3
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2003, 10:58:17 AM »
MathewM.

Re Carnoustie 16th.

In the '53 Open won by Hogan, Bobby Locke used a brassie to just short of the green and chipped on for his par all three days.  

If I am not mistaken, Tom Watson never hit the green in his five rounds there, in winning The Open. Can anyone confirm this?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: A driver par 3
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2003, 11:02:18 AM »
Bob

My understanding is that Watson never had a par in his five bites at the cherry in '76.  I'd be surprised if any of those attempts included a 3-stab, given Watson, in those days at least........
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A driver par 3
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2003, 11:12:08 AM »
I used to feel that all par 3's on a public course, especially, should be medium length, as the average player enjoys them.  I worked at a course in maintenance while in college that had a 216 yard par 3, and everyone there said it should be shortened, as no one "wants to hit a wood to a par 3".

One of the golf digest rankers lowered my shot value rating on one of my courses, in part to "lack of variety on Par 3 hole lengths."  It got me thinking, and I now vary distances as much as I can.  In the last two years, I have built three par 3 holes with back tee yardages of 260 or more.  (Colbert Hills, into the wind, no less, The Quarry, and Indian Creek).  There are some advantages:

1.  We can always adjust the forward tees accordingly, and
2. Where else can you reliably test the long iron play of the best players anymore?

The CH and IC versions are Redans and Reverse Redans, of sorts.  The 4th at the Quarry is a minicule target on a downhill par 3, open in front, but with bunkers on all other sides.  You can't miss this anywhere but short, hopefully setting up a dilema, assuming you can hit the driver that far. (The forward tee plays no more than 185.)  For kicks, the next par 3 is over the Quarry, and you can miss long, as we provides some fairway back there, but not short, or you go in the quarry.  Way in the quarry.....

I did do a Biarittz green - but it was on a short par 4, potentially driveable.  That is along the lines of G Bahto saying they should lengthen the CBMac holes to play the equivalent way they did in the old days, and forgetting what par is.

Dsn Kelly -

I have printed the caddie comebacks.  Good Stuff.  What about:

Golfer: "I wanted to play that one in the worst way"
Caddy: "You did, sir.  You did.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A driver par 3
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2003, 11:46:26 AM »
Jeff --

Your story about par-3 variety tells me:

The (golf magazine) rankers do serve some good purpose, after all -- other than selling a few magazines.

I've wondered about that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A driver par 3
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2003, 08:04:47 PM »
#13 (Craighead) at the Balcomie Links course in Crail, Scotland.

219 yards... all up hill... over a steep faced ridge... into the wind. The last time I played there it was a driver and a 9-iron!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

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