[T_MacWood]

"...the reason is probably fairly obvious. In that area (Long Island) at that time, there was a fairly interconnected little fraternity of both architects and probably clients too. It's very unlikely they all got together and consciously shut Ross out, but in a society like that one at that time (in that era) most all those people either knew each other or certainly who each other were. An atmosphere like that one was then the fraternity can get pretty tight and the fact is Ross was just not part of that New York or more specifically Long Island golf fraternity."

My impression Macdonald & Raynor were a faternity of two that was very tight and omnipresent. Emmet on the fringe perhaps of those two....but clearly independent. Tilly competed against those gents...in fact he redesigned all of their work at one time or another. Travis was Travis. Strong doesn't fall into clear group.

They were the most active. If you want to call it a faternity, that's fine, but it doesn't appear too tight or capable of closing anyone out--deliberately or not (especially a man of Ross's stature). That is what I mean by loose. Alison at Timber Point, Park at Maidstone, Tippett at Montauk, Flynn at Shinnecock are four of the most prominent projects in LI history.

Good point about Ross working with (or at least being exposed to) many of the same blueblood clients in places like Rhode Island and south Florida. Would Gulph Mills qualify?

I'm wondering if there was something about Ross's reputation or a preconcieved idea about the type of projects he worked that made him less appealing to some. Just a thought.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

It would seem logical, that if Ross and Travis were so friendly that they entered into a gentleman's agreement with respect to courses in their relative backyards.

It makes sense geographically and it makes sense in the context of personal relationships amongst good friends.

With respect to your quotes from different sources, you have to temper the words of the author in the context of autobiographical egotism.

Individuals often give themselves credit for accomplishments, ideas and deeds that often far exceed their actual involvement.

A perfect modern day example would be Friar's Head.

It's my understanding that the bunting for the flag sticks was the idea of our very own Tommy Naccarato.
The nautical signals for F and H, for Friar's Head.

If the above is true, and I believe it to be so, If Tommy Naccarato said that he was involved at Friar's Head, he would be technically correct.  However, "involved" isn't very descriptive and could be interpreted in a million ways, and without clarity, without the facts, you can't assume that because someone, especially someone with an enormous ego, said that they were involved, that it means that they were intimately and intricately involved in the specific design and construction of the entire golf course, holes or specific features.

Who was it that said he invented the internet, Al Gore ?
Who said that he was the inspiration for "Love Story".

You seem to continually take the words of the authors, authors with large egos, as the Gospel, and that's often a quantum leap of faith, especially absent the corroborating facts.

TEPaul,

Blue Bloods or WASPS, they all wanted the best golf course possible, so I doubt they established an unwritten restrictive policy with respect to certain architects, and it also doesn't address the architects chosen for the Jewish courses on Long Island.  Why wouldn't they have wanted to enlist Ross's services.

I like my theory the best  

[T_MacWood]

Pat
Interesting theory. Travis began to focus on golf course design in the mid to late teens. Garden City CC is the only LI course I'm aware of he designed during this period, he was much more active in NJ, Westchester/Connecticut suburbs and NY State. If he was going to enter into a non compete with Ross wouldn't NJ have made more sense based upon his activities?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Do you think he could have predicted where his work was going to be ??

It's easy for us to look back in 20-20 hindsight, but at the outset, it's doubtful that he would have known the geographic whereabouts of his future work.

Hence, a geogrpaphic, territorial non-compete amongst close friends would seem to make sense.

[T_MacWood]

If you believe he projected that he would be working Long Island, why not the rest of the Met region, he was a legend throughout. I doubt he would've confined himself to LI only. Travis died in 1927.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

How can anyone predict, with any degree of certainty, where their future work will be ?

Travis was awarded both original and remodeling work in the greater NY area, including clubs in NJ, NY and CT.

While his body of work is small, it wouldn't preclude him from entering into a non-compete, gentleman's agreement with his good friend, Ross.

[TEPaul]

Why in the world would Ross enter into a "non-compete" clause with Travis on Long Island, even if he was his good friend? Ross was basically the production machine even in the teens and why would Travis do the same? If they were such good friends don't you think it'd be a lot more logical that they mayve tried to work together rather than not competing?

It's always been my feeling that the company of Colt and Alison partnered with Alister MacKenzie simply because they didn't want to compete against him and vice versa.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
Do you honestly think that Travis told Ross you can work Yonkers, you can work Tenafly, you can work Staten Island, just stay off Long Island.

Does Travis strike you as someone who would need a non compete?  Or want a non compete? He'd rip your head off for even contemplating the thought.

An interesting theory, but it doesn't make sense when you consider Travis's influence throughout the Met region (not just on LI) and his personality...plus there was plenty of work on LI after Travis died in 1927.

[SPDB]

Pat - What were the 10 New Jersey MetroNY Ross courses you cited?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I realize I'm not Pat, but as a former NJ resident, I can contribute with:

Plainfield
Echo Lake
Mountain Ridge
Knickerbocker
Riverton (although this is closer to Phila.)
Crestmont
Montclair (#1,2,3 nines)
Bergen Hills/River Vale (new name/old name)
Deal (orig 9h by Van Etten, redes. by Ross, I saw it last fall and I recall features characteristic of Ross, and it's probably the ultimate WASP enclave to boot)

NLE-Englewood CC
?Essex Fells (I've read it's Raynor and I've also read it's Ross.  I saw the course briefly a few years ago and I wasn't looking for specific features, etc back then, so if someone who knows the truth could please clarify, it would be appreciated).

This would make nine or ten--I'm not certain if there were any others, obviously NLE.

[TEPaul]

Doug:

I see your parentheses next to Riverton which is definitely not in the NY Metro area.

The Ross courses in the Philly Metro area (Delaware Valley) are;

Riverton
Aronimink
Gulph Mills
St Davids
Kennett Square (at least one nine)
Torresdale Frankford
LuLu
Sunnybrook (NLE)
Overbrook (NLE)

Some thought Chester Valley was Ross but it was more likely Perry Maxwell and Concord (Brenton Lakes) thought it was Ross but we proved it to be Flynn.

Ross did do some minimal redesign work around here too such as a few things apparently on Whitemarsh Valley (Thomas).

Donald Ross actually had an office in Wynnewood Pa (just outside Philly) run for quite a time by assistant J.B McGovern (sole design the present Overbrook G.C.)

Ross had other courses in Pennsylvania but the ones listed above are in the general Philly metro area (Delaware Valley which includes mid Western NJ).

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

It's simple, really.

Ross was such a production machine, that staying out of LI in defference to his friend would have had little consequence or impact on his business.

Tom MacWood,

Interesting that you want to use Travis's personality to support for your position, but were unwilling to accept CB MacDonald's personality when I offered it to support my position on another thread.

I think it's a very real possibility that Ross agreed not to design courses in Travis's backyard as a courtesy to his friend.  You offer no substantive evidence to refute this theory, other then to try to ridicule it by displaying a rudimentary knowledge of nearby counties and towns.

I think it makes perfect sense.
Even today, professional courtesy is an accepted practice, and the extension of it amongst friends, quite logical.

You needn't be afraid that I've discovered a possible connection that you've missed.  

Doug Braunsdorf,

Since I counted Winged Foot, Baltusrol and other courses as two courses, I counted Montclair with two courses as well, afterall, Ross designed more then 18 holes at Montclair.

I also believe that you left out Essex County East.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
I have no problem with you using Macdonald's personality, unfortunately in that case Macdonald contradicted yhour theory with his own words giving credit to Emmet.

East Hampton is in Travis's backyard, but Staten Island, Englewood and Bronxville are not?

Does Travis strike you as someone who would need a non compete?

What happened to the non compete when Travis died?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Long Island is rather easy to define, geographically.
No need to get town specific, just say Long Island, and every body understands the lines of demarcation.

Yes, Travis strikes me as someone who would enter into a gentleman's agreement with his FRIEND, Ross with respect to not stepping on each others toes.  It makes perfect sense.

It may be that since Ross had not done any work on LI up until Travis's death that the infrastructure of his organization was such that going to Long Island might be more of a hassle then it was worth.

You, of all people, as a researcher, should be well aware of the fact that after 1927 Ross designed very little original work in comparison to the amout of original design work he did
prior to 1927.  So, Ross not venturing into Long Island after 1927 is not unusual at all, since his production was on the decline.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
Do you think Travis was affraid to compete with Ross on Long Island or anywhere else for that matter (including NJ, Westchester and Conn)? He doesn't strike me as someone who would enter into a non compete with friend or foe.

When was the non compete entered into?

Ross was working in North Jersey in the late 20's, it would seem relatively simple to get out the Island...just cross a bridge or two. Did he have trouble with Staten Island?

He could get his infrastructure to Havana, but not to Flushing. Makes sense.

[GeoffreyC]

Ross' Siwanoy in Westchester County is a fantastic golf course over a really good property where he took maximal advantage of a stream to create diagonal hazards. The course received national aclaim by hosting an early PGA championship.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I've never seen any evidence anywhere at any time that Donald Ross was willing to stay out of any other architects way or territory. If you have any evidence of that at all I'd sure like to see it.

Ross seemed to be and appeared to look like a nice avuncular guy but my understanding from many little bits and pieces is he was definitely a tough competitor as well as a very effective salesman. Additionally, I'm not sure I've ever heard of Ross turning down any business at all, ever and particularly since his organization grew to the point it was structured in such a way as it appeared he was able to handle anything, any amount of work at any time and did.

Something like 26 courses under construction at one time in one of the years in the mid 1920s just might be unprecedented in volume for any architect ever. He apparently had something like 3,000 people working under his interesting interconnected organization at one time. That's huge in any era, possibly the most ever.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Do you think Travis was affraid to compete with Ross on Long Island or anywhere else for that matter (including NJ, Westchester and Conn)?

It's not a matter of fear, but courtesy amongst friends.
There was plenty of business for everyone, so why step on a friends toes, especially when Travis was small potatos, a boutique operation, compared to Ross's juggernaut

He doesn't strike me as someone who would enter into a non compete with friend or foe.

How well did you know him ?

When was the non compete entered into?

About the same time, or perhaps a little earlier than Emmett got involved at NGLA

Ross was working in North Jersey in the late 20's, it would seem relatively simple to get out the Island...just cross a bridge or two. Did he have trouble with Staten Island?

That's what makes the theory logical, there was no physical impediment to his being involved in Long Island.
A gentleman's agreement amongst friends makes sense.

He could get his infrastructure to Havana, but not to Flushing. Makes sense.

It does when you consider the enormous amount of work that Ross did in Florida, barely 90 miles from Cuba

God forbid that someone other then yourself comes up with a theory that's worth consideration, a theory with some merit.

Despite all of your non-germane objections, you've offered nothing to indicate that Travis and Ross, who were good friends, didn't agree to enter into a gentleman's agreement that avoided them stepping on one another's toes.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
The agreement was made in 1906...prior to either man's full fledged design career....interesting.

"It may be that since Ross had not done any work on LI up until Travis's death that the infrastructure of his organization was such that going to Long Island might be more of a hassle then it was worth." Followed in the next post, "That's what makes the theory logical, there was no physical impediment to his being involved in Long Island."

I have no evidence that Travis and Ross didn't enter into an agreement to swap wives either. I guess that means they did...a couple of maniacs.

Don't worry I considered your theory.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

TEPaul,

Doug Braunsdorf,

Since I counted Winged Foot, Baltusrol and other courses as two courses, I counted Montclair with two courses as well, afterall, Ross designed more then 18 holes at Montclair.

I also believe that you left out Essex County East.

Pat-

  Ok.  Splitting hairs here, but we could actually say that Montclair is three different Ross courses, playing the following combinations of nines, but not including as a "course" for this discussion the possibility of playing the same nine twice for an 18 hole round:
1-2
1-3
2-3

I'll have to read up on Essex County East.  I didn't know Ross was involved here--I know that is the current ECCC that Banks finished after Raynor died, which was a redesign plus additional new holes of the original AWT layout.  I seem to remember a post from George Bahto on here about that little corner of Essex County some time back.  

Thanks Pat.  

Doug

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Doug:

I see your parentheses next to Riverton which is definitely not in the NY Metro area.

The Ross courses in the Philly Metro area (Delaware Valley) are;

Riverton
Aronimink
Gulph Mills
St Davids
Kennett Square (at least one nine)
Torresdale Frankford
LuLu
Sunnybrook (NLE)
Overbrook (NLE)

Some thought Chester Valley was Ross but it was more likely Perry Maxwell and Concord (Brenton Lakes) thought it was Ross but we proved it to be Flynn.

Ross did do some minimal redesign work around here too such as a few things apparently on Whitemarsh Valley (Thomas).

Donald Ross actually had an office in Wynnewood Pa (just outside Philly) run for quite a time by assistant J.B McGovern (sole design the present Overbrook G.C.)

Ross had other courses in Pennsylvania but the ones listed above are in the general Philly metro area (Delaware Valley which includes mid Western NJ).

TEPaul-
  Ok, right, I thought about this after the fact--Riverton is almost, if not, within sight of Center City, no?  That part of NJ is basically Philly, much as Bergen and Hudson counties in NJ are basically NYC.  I'll drop Riverton from the NJ list in the metro NY area.  
I don't think Ross did anything in Northern NJ (north of the Raritan) west of Morristown. All of his works were in the NJ suburbs of NYC.  

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Is a non-compete agreement in Long island between Ross and Travis just something you think sounds logical or do you have some actual evidence such an agreement was even thought of between the two of them?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I seem to recall something Richard Tufts and/or his son told me almost 40 years ago about Ross and his work in the greater New York area, but don't have any documentation regarding a gentleman's agreement.   After all, in those days, a man's handshake was all the documentation anyone ever needed.

Tom MacWood,

I understand your fear that someone might just hit on something that you didn't discover.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
I seem to recall something Richard Tufts and/or his son told me almost 40 years ago about Ross and his work in the greater New York area, but don't have any documentation regarding a gentleman's agreement.  After all, in those days, a man's handshake was all the documentation anyone ever needed."

Pat:

That's very interesting---very interesting! Doesn't get much more direct than that. What do you mean, though, when you say 'I seem to recall'? You're the type of guy who doesn't forget much of anything. Now you take me as an example, I can't remember that much of the entire decade of the 1960s!    

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Pat
Do you think Travis was affraid to compete with Ross on Long Island or anywhere else for that matter (including NJ, Westchester and Conn)? He doesn't strike me as someone who would enter into a non compete with friend or foe.

When was the non compete entered into?

Ross was working in North Jersey in the late 20's, it would seem relatively simple to get out the Island...just cross a bridge or two. Did he have trouble with Staten Island?

He could get his infrastructure to Havana, but not to Flushing. Makes sense.

Tom-
Not attacking, but a lot of those bridges weren't opened to traffic until the late 1920's, at the earliest.  

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