[T_MacWood]

MacKenzie had Cypress Point, Thompson Banff (and several others), Raynor Fishers Island (and a number of others), Alison Timber Point, Flynn Shinnecock, Colt Pine Valley, Macdonald Lido, Fowler Eastward Ho!, etc.

Was Ross ever given a similar prime location and/or budget? And if the answer is no...why not? His reputation was sterling, and considering the length of his career and large output it would seem odd more than a few would have come up.

With the recent comments about Flynn and Maxwell developing relationships with wealthy patrons...I wondered if Ross did the same.

[Jim Sweeney]

Doesn't Pinehurst count?

[Jeff_Mingay]

What about Seminole?

[T_MacWood]

Would you consider Pinehurst and Seminole as sites in the same class as Cypress Point, Fishers Island, Pine Valley, etc?

Seminole was the first that came to mind for me and perhaps it should be put into the same class, but it appears to me Seminole's brillance has more to do with Ross than a world class site.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Wasn't frugality and efficiency in design and construction a Ross strength ?

Didn't the timing of the Great Depression have an impact on available budgets for Ross, more then the others ??

Isn't site evaluation partially tainted by the final product ?

I don't know that Seminole is an inferior site to PV.
Didn't Fazio have a similar site to PV just down the road ?
Didn't Fazio have a similar site for his 10 hole golf course at PV ?  Are those sites better then Seminole

[TEPaul]

Donald Ross, in his apparently own unique way was clearly an excellent salesman, and probably an awesome salesman (the things he pitched to my club are amazing!). And we know he was certainly the most recognized architect in American in the Roaring 20s, doing as much as 26 courses in one year in the 1920s. And we all, who study golf architecture, understand the truth is out there amongst clients and potential clients of practically any era that for some reason quantity alone probably attracts and hooks potential clients as much as, and perhaps far more, than anything else. So as the real production juggernaut of his era Ross was probably going to get more calls than any other of his competitors anyway, and so he probably had all the jobs he could ever want.

However, we've all heard about his diappointment of not getting ANGC----and some even say that inspired him to really do a job on Pinehurst #2 in competition! I've heard this long time rumor too that he missed something here in Philly that really disappointed him. It was likely either Philadelphia C.C. or HVGC, and that may have inspired him to really do a job on Aronimink in competition when he got that slightly later.

I've also heard Seminole may've been the course that Ross went after hardest--maybe even the only one he really actively went after, and he got it. How good is Seminole naturally? About as good as an East Coast Florida site could be, being right on the coastline and with it's twin parallel ridgelines, and Ross really did do a great job on it particularly in routing!

Some areas that had tight architectural communities such as the NY Met area and Philadelphia's Delaware Valley that never included Ross in their fraternity may have actively tried to keep Ross out and it appears they succeeded to a large degree. Boston, the north midwest, the mid-atlantic, Rhode Island etc, he was very strong against competition. Other areas like the West coast it seems he was too busy to challenge particularly with their particular fraternity! Why did those regional architect fraternites try to keep him out as it seems they did to an extentt? Probably because Ross was their toughest outside competitor anyway and he was also pretty much a career long loner, never really willing to partner up with another or other architects as so many of them did in that day and age, possibly as much to cut down on the competition as anything else!

Ross also had an interesting regional interconnected organizational network in certain areas of the country but not others and it's pretty well known he wasn't crazy about traveling himself that much.

That sort of loose regional network modus operandi was apparently pretty interesting and one that potentially could ruffle some feathers. He did it at my club. He went in there pitched the client, got the contract and recommended they steal the best superintendent in the area---and he obviously used the grapevine to figure out who that was---and use him as a grow-in/foreman type! Doing stuff like that probably had the exact opposite effect of endearing him to his local architect competition.

[BCrosby]

It's true that Ross got very few spectacular sites. I can't think of any Ross courses with breath-taking ocean views. He never did a course in a Banff-like setting. But, then, not many did.

I think TEP hints at what was going on. There was up 'till the 1920's a pretty well defined eastern seaboard establishment. They organized the first tier clubs at the best sites in Philly/NYC/LI/and Boston. And they used a pretty finite group of acceptable architects. (Note how many MacD Raynor courses there are on LI. There's one behind every gas stateion, as far as I can tell. That was the old, big NYC money all working off the same list.)

Is there an old line eastern seaboard club that Ross worked for? (Do GM/AronimInck count?) I suspect Ross was viewed as a little too proletarian for the Knickerbocker Club/NYAC set in the East.

What's curious is that Ross did virtually every top tier club in the SE. There were very few exceptions. The old estalishment clubs in Atlanta, B'ham, Mobile, Augusta, Nashville, Ashville, C'nooga, etc. were all done by Ross. And some were built on terrific properties. The problem is that Ross spread himself too thin down this way. He oversaw very little of the construction of these SE courses. Most were not built to their potential.

Bob

 

 

[Scott_Burroughs]

It's true that Ross got very few spectacular sites. I can't think of any Ross courses with breath-taking ocean views.

You can't see the ocean at Seminole?

He never did a course in a Banff-like setting.

Didn't Ross do the original course at Banff?  Thompson's course was a re-design.


The points are well-taken though.  Ross rarely got the best sites.

[Patrick_Mucci]

What were the best sites during his reign as a leading architect ?

BCrosby,

Seminole, not a great site ??

Ocean or water views:
Gulfstream ?
Palm Beach CC
Rhode Island

As far as his being excluded from the Metropolitan NY area,
Plainfield and Mountain Ridge are top 100 courses, so he must have impressed someone in that neck of the woods.

He has an abundance of golf courses in the Met area.

When you consider the volume of his work, how many more projects could he have undertaken ?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I think TEP hints at what was going on. There was up 'till the 1920's a pretty well defined eastern seaboard establishment. They organized the first tier clubs at the best sites in Philly/NYC/LI/and Boston. And they used a pretty finite group of acceptable architects. (Note how many MacD Raynor courses there are on LI. There's one behind every gas stateion, as far as I can tell. That was the old, big NYC money all working off the same list.)

Is there an old line eastern seaboard club that Ross worked for? (Do GM/AronimInck count?) I suspect Ross was viewed as a little too proletarian for the Knickerbocker Club/NYAC set in the East.

I raised a similar point in a different post, on Jeffersonville GC.  I often wondered why Ross was not represented on Long Island-- being as deep as it is in courses designed by "Golden Age" architects.  This is a plausible reason, that the other established architects (CBM/Raynor, Tillie, and Philadelphians) kept Ross out of the area.  I believe TEPaul raised this point in response to my question originally.  Also, think about these few things; CBM traveled in the same circles as many of the "Gold Coast" contingent of the day, and perhaps he had more to do with it than any other; also, consider that Ross was a native Scotsman, and CBM was an American (yes, he had Scottish lineage, but was NOT a native Scotsman; he studied there, but was American.  Perhaps there was some "jealously" going on in terms of being thought of as "authentic"?).  Perhaps CBM was slightly jealous of Ross being a native Scotsman, and, because he had infiltrated the Gold Coast society of the day on LI, he persuaded them to use other designers (himself, SR, Tillie, etc).  Think about it.  No Ross on LI, I don't think any in Westchester, and the same for the Greenwich area of CT.  

The same could be said for the Philadelphians, although there are a bunch of Ross courses around Philly.  Perhaps they weren't as successful in keeping Ross "off their turf".    
In terms of golf courses, the closest Ross came to New York City and LI were Knickerbocker (Bergen Cty, NJ), Plainfield (these might qualify as "old line Eastern Seaboard"), Echo Lake (Westfield, NJ), and several others in "bedroom" communities for NYC.  Nothing in the Connecticut suburbs (Greenwich, etc).  
Most Ross courses in New York are located well upstate, particularly around the cities Buffalo, Elmira, Rochester.  
In Boston/Mass., don't forget, Ross was strong there; this could have been helped by his ties to the Tufts family.  Same with his connection to clubs in the southeastern US.  
As an aside, Dev Emmet was also a member of the "aristocracy" of the day.  He is obviously VERY well represented in this region of the country, particularly LI.
(Travis, I often wonder about.  He has a few "old money" clubs with his name on it (Round Hill, Westchester, GCGC, GCCC, North Jersey, White Beeches) but he was an Australian.  Perhaps his connections arose from GCGC).  

[BCrosby]

Pat -

I don't think of Seminole as "spectacular" in the same sense as a Cypress or Pebble or even Fisher's. Great property, great course, but the views don't knock your socks off. It's not a place I would take my wife just for the ocean views.

I don't know much about Plainfield or Mountain Ridge. I'm sure they are good courses. But are they old line, eastern establishment clubs? Would you group them with NGLA, WF, Shinnie, Maidstone, TCC, or PVGC in terms of membership? I don't know; just asking.

My sense is that Ross got shut-out from most of the old line eastern establishment clubs. Plainfield and MR may be exceptions. Yes, he did courses in the NY metro area. But he appears to have been passed over by the more exclusive clubs where old money New York played on weekends.

Maybe I'm forgetting some obvious names, but is there a Ross course on LI? In Westchester County?

All of which contrasts with the fact that Ross was arguably the architect of choice for work in the SE, Midwest and regions upstate from the eastern seaboard. Very curious.

Bob

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

BCrosby,

He had a number of courses in Westchester, some of which NLE.

While I love Newport, I'd have to say that the views of the ocean at Seminole are far superior.

Cypress is a wonderful golf course, but your views of the ocean are restricted to the last few holes, whereas Seminole has views from # 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17 and 18.
The shoreline at Cypress might be more dramatic, but if it's views of the ocean you want, Seminole's are more plentiful.

[TEPaul]

"While I love Newport, I'd have to say that the views of the ocean at Seminole are far superior."

Pat;

What views of the ocen at Seminole? I've probably played that course 500 times over the years but not in some years now. Have they cleared out along the top of the dunes so you can see the ocean? The only place I ever saw the ocean was to walk to the very back of the 14th tee but generally there was some Bo Derek type "10" lying sunbathing naked nearby so I don't remember seeing the ocean then either. But from nowhere on that course did I ever notice the ocean and no one can tell me I concentrate so hard on golf I missed it for that reason! I realize those old WASP types who created Seminole and got Ross to do the course were perhaps the epitome of UNDERSTATED but all in all having a course right on the Atlanitc with about 1000 yards of coastline and not bothering to get something done with ocean views from the golf course is more than the eipitome of understated!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Seminole has cleared a good amount, if not all, of the interior miscellaneous vegetation, hence views of the ocean have opened up from many locations

Like you, I'm strangely drawn to the back of the 14th tee to scan the beach for any non-golf activities.  I also repeat the process on the 17th tee.

Man doth not live on golf alone.

Seminole would have to be in anyone's definition of a prime location.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I swear to God some of those old Seminole members I used to know were so understated and vague they probably had little idea the Atlantic Ocean was right next to them and that's obviously why they let the dunes vegetate up and disappear from view. One time when I was younger I was playing with my Dad and this rich thief Ogden Phipps and a guy from Philly by the name of Dizzy Benson! Well, Dizzy was the definition of DIZZY in capital letters, I can tell you. We were waiting for a few minutes on #17 tee as there was a group right on the 17th green. Dizzy saunters over to the tee markers and plants his ball and we all just figured he was getting antsy but to our amazement---WHACK---he hits the ball right into the middle of the green and into the middle of a foursome. Dad hollers "Dizzy, what in the hell did you do that for?" and Dizzy looks at the green and says; "Oh Jesus, I didn't know anybody was on the green!"

Can you believe that? Some of those guys were completely priceless!!

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Matter of fact I never would've thought to peer over the back of #14 tee if it wasn't for Ogden Phipps. Dad played with him a lot and I did too during vacations and such and everytime we'd play #13 as soon as he'd finish the hole he'd half trot off the green and we'd find him at the back of #14 tee peering up and down the beach below to spy one of those naked Bo Derek "10s". If there was one down there Ogden would come back from the back of the tee sort of quivering and muttering and he'd plant his tee ball and wail on it and completely screw it up every single time. It was like clock-work--one of the funniest things I've ever seen but we had to be sort of careful because Odgen wasn't one of those guys you could exactly laugh at. One time Ogden beat me out of two bucks and when I took it out of my wallet to hand it to him he almost took my wrist off he snatched it so hard!

Guys like that didn't live in the real world in my book. When in Florida Ogden lived on this massive yacht with a jet helicopter parked on the top of it and moored at his place on Palm Beach that had no house because he tore it down for some unknown reason. One time Ogden was watching an NFL game on the yacht and just as the game was getting tight at the end the network inexplicable cut the game off and went to the news. Ogden was so pissed he called one of his crew and told him to take the TV and throw it overboard! When the crewman asked him why he said the TV was malfunctioning because it just cut off the game and went to the news!

Priceless!

[T_MacWood]

Ross didn't do a ton of courses in the NY Metro (no where near the number Tilly and Emmet did), but he did his share...they all appear to be in NJ and Westchester, not a single course on Long Island. Why I'm not sure. And we was most active in the area early in his career. Maybe it was Boston-NY thing.

In Philadelphia he was prolific. Perhaps not the number of courses that Flynn did - but close - and more than Tillinghast.

I'm not sure why nothing on Long Island where the very rich were often located. He dominated Rhode Island and a favorite playground of the LI rich. He was also strong in Palm Beach and south Florida.

Regarding the super sites and super projects...it makes sense that Macdonald would work Lido. And his protege seem to benifit often from the connection, Monterey Peninsula, Cypress Point, Fishers Island come to mind. Thompson got all the fabulous projects in Canada.

Foreign visitors got numerous prime projects and sites:
Fowler Eastward Ho!, Pebble Beach and Olympic Ocean.
Colt Pine Valley
Alison Timber Point and Sea Island
MacKenzie Pebble Beach and Cypress Point
Park Maidstone

Did Ross charge less than his competitors...he built a many nine hole course in small towns all over the midwest? Is it a case where Ross refused to rub elbows with the right people? Rolling Rock, Gulph Mills and Oyster Harbors would seem to go against that theory.

[ian]

Scott,

"Didn't Ross do the original course at Banff?  Thompson's course was a re-design."

Absolutely not. Only one hole was ever believed to be Ross and that is the "current" second hole. As far as I understand it the 2nd happens to be in the same green site as one of the holes (not the same hole). I'm guessing it was Klien's Ross book that created the confusion.

Tom Mac

I agree with someone elses comment that Pine Valley was not a great site, it was a great design.

Did Ross not work in the mountains in Carolina. Linville, Roaring Gap, Highlands, etc. Isn't one of these in the Mountain settings? With all his work, there must be something being overlooked.

[T_MacWood]

Ian
Why wasn't Pine Valley a great site? What inland site has better natural features?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Crump began PV around 1912, just when Ross was starting his design career.

Maidstone was begun in 1896, long before Ross dreamed of being an architect.

Hence both of those examples should be dismissed.

Given the modes of transportation and the fact that Ross didn't design a golf course in California until 1923 would seem to rule out Pebble Beach as a potential site for him.

Perhaps the distance, means to cross the continent, and the time and effort to travel back and forth to California made designing in the coastal west unattractive for him, hence Olympic's courses should be ruled out as well.

How many times have you played to Pine Valley ?

What makes that site any better then the land surrounding and in the near vicinity of Pine Valley ?

[T_MacWood]

Park's major contribution at Maidstone occured in the 20's.

One of Ross's largest projects and the one that IMO was the springboard of his career was CC of Havana in 1911. That project was hailed on both sides of the Atlantic.

Fowler and MacKenzie had no problem traveling coast to coast. Neither men did any work in the US, much less California, prior to 1920's. Willie Watson and JD Dunn dominated in California--both Scots who came from the East.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Cypress is a wonderful golf course, but your views of the ocean are restricted to the last few holes, whereas Seminole has views from # 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17 and 18.
The shoreline at Cypress might be more dramatic, but if it's views of the ocean you want, Seminole's are more plentiful.

What Cypress were you playing?  You must have the best concentration of your game this side of Tiger, because you can see the ocean at Cypress on every hole except maybe #5, #7, and #11, and that might not even be true.  Not sure if you can see it from #6 tee or not.

[SPDB]

Doug B. -
Ross had a hand with Raynor at Greenwich CC.

Pat - Newport? Ross?

I challenge anybody to step onto the 11th Tee at Misquamicut and walk off saying that Ross never designed a course with commanding ocean views.

To wit:

[TEPaul]

It seems to me Donald Ross never turned anything at all down. His company's organizatonal structure must have been something to behold in those days, ramping up for probably anything at all that came their way. Some say at one time (in the mid 1920s) Ross may have had up to 3,000 people working under his organization in one way or another.

Another thing to consider about Ross was the offices he had and the territory he personally plied---ie, Pinehurst, Philadelphia, Rhode Island and the Boston area.

There's something to this type of personal availability I think we on here should recognize and acknowledge regarding archiects used by clubs for any reason because it appears to have been very different from the way we go about things today.

Back in the old days the way things worked at my club is probably a very good example of how things generally worked with architects. The architects my club chose, perhaps even for initial construction but certainly for numerous redesign sessions, basically had most to do with not who they were but who was in town at the time!!

This type of thing just went on constantly. If Ross was around many needing something done would probably try to grab him. Same with when Maxwell was in town, or RTJ, Fazio and a number of others. It probably wasn't much different for most of the well known architects than it was for Mackenzie when he was on his Australian tour or even Tillinghast on his PGA project tour. When those architects were traveling their schedules at times could be unbelievably hectic and compacted.

RTJ at my course is a pefect example. We needed a range in the 1960s. Somebody heard RTJ was over at Merion and our green chairman went over there and picked him up and drove him the 15 minutes to GMGC. Because of that RTJ sited our range which is now the fairway of the original Ross 10th hole and because of that he changed #9 green, he extended the 10th green, the second half of the routing on #12, the first half of the routing on #13 including some bunkers etc.

How long was he at GMGC total? Less than an hour!! He drew up some plans, a local contractor was hired and it was all done.

Ross actually had an office here (Wynnewood) staffed by J.B McGovern. A local sports writer said he heard Ross occasionally may have spent a month here on his way from Pinehurst north to Little Compton RI each season. He probably never bothered to go onto Long Island as in those days the easiest way to get to RI was around the west side of NYC and up through Connecticut.

Certainly not all new construction worked this way but back in that day if someone fairly well known was around they were probably going to do some serious networking when they were in town. This obviously mostly included the high production architects like Ross, RTJ or Fazio. They may never have turned down much of anything at all---to them this was a business, first and foremost.

Others, like probably William Flynn were just more low production, not really willing or able to ramp up and down for anything that might come their way.

It'd be interesting for someone to try to track which of those early architects actually turned things down. I'm betting it was really rare!

[Mike_Sweeney]

I challenge anybody to step onto the 11th Tee at Misquamicut and walk off saying that Ross never designed a course with commanding ocean views.

Sean,

How much did Ross do at Misquamicut ? I know he did the "redesign", but was it a full re-routing ?

PS. Not challenging, I really don't know.

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