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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Attributes of Friar's Head?
« on: February 21, 2003, 06:52:49 PM »
Not that any of us judge a course by pictures  ;)  BUT... for those of you who have visited the Friar's Head course profile or better yet played the course, which - if any - design attributes capture your fancy the most? Perhaps a feature here that you have never seen before that you really like? Perhaps a particular shot or hole that you salivate at playing? The more specific the answer, the better.

Conversely, do you sense any lost opportunities within the design? Any overall weaknesses?

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt Dupre

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Re: Attributes of Friar's Head?
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2003, 07:43:02 PM »
From just the pictures, I'm most impressed with the green complexes - the naturalness certainly, but also the way some fairly significant contours fit, primarily due to the sizing of the greens, I think.

In particular, the 5th with its knob on the front left of the green seems to truly let the green and the pin position dictate play - but in a counterintuitive way.  From the overhead and the picture from the tee, you would think you would play your tee shot right to have better access to the left side pin.  For a right pin, play the left side.  But the hummock in front seems to severely alter that strategy - making the target area for the second shot much smaller, and seemingly taking the ground approach away.  Dammit, I'm getting frustrated thinking about it.  >:(

I think this is a perfect example of the type of hole that one would need to play a lot to get comfortable with - and one that you would probably play differently each time depending on all the factors involved....in other words, near perfect IMO.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Attributes of Friar's Head?
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2003, 08:16:41 PM »
The pictures of hole two especially and i imagine others built on the former farmland are reminiscent of MacKenzie's work at Moortown.  The small hillocks shaped to look natural look very much like those that the Moortown members thought were not the hand of man.  Those pictures also made me think immediately of the pictures of Moortown I had seen in Doak's book.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Mike Hendren

Re: Attributes of Friar's Head?
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2003, 08:17:59 PM »
Ran,

Visually, there is so much to admire and even marvel at.  I'm particularly amazed at the interior green contours.  Such quirk generally occurs naturally on golf courses.  C & C has subtly manufactured quirk that is neither contrived nor over the top.  Even with the superb architecture through the green, they "ran through the tape" by building an incredible set of greens that appear challenging and FUN!  I also think their restraint in the potato field was noteworthy.  All this from your profile, mind you.   Thanks again.  

Regards,

Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Attributes of Friar's Head?
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2003, 09:31:25 PM »
I was struck by the way they course flows and the brilliant use of transition holes.  
Secondly and I have mentioned it before, you have three and possibly four different types of terrain, in the trees, farmland (with no trees), sand dunes and along the water (which I am taking some liberty).  Not many courses have this luxury, maybe only CPC.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve L.

Re: Attributes of Friar's Head?
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2003, 09:33:25 PM »
Great site...  Great Imaginative Greens...  GREAT photography...  

Great narrative Ran, a treat to read..!  Many thanks...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Attributes of Friar's Head?
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2003, 10:24:40 PM »
Just for the sake of it I'm gonna say something negative because i'm sure everything will be positive... I don't know why but those 2 elevated tees seem too high to me...especially the 2nd one(the one on the back nine)...It just seems a little to much to me. But i have never been there so i don't know how i would react in person. Other than that, no complaints that i can see. ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Attributes of Friar's Head?
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2003, 10:35:55 PM »
Before I make this comment I have to admit that I have never seen Friar's Head in person and it seems rather silly of me to make a judgement prior to actually seeing or playing a course but I have a couple comments I'd like to add.....

The picture of the 10th hole at Friar's Head, in the photo shown, looks so amazing that I have created in my mind the belief that this could be one of the most beautiful holes I have ever seen.  With that said, it barely edges out the other 17 holes in my mind from what I saw in the pictures from a visual standpoint.  

I'm sure if I ever get to step foot on this property that my perception will be different of everything I see in these pictures, but I can only imagine that the perception will be more fond.  This truly looks special in a way I haven't seen in modern design.  I hope it lives up to the expectations these pictures give me.

Jeff F.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
#nowhitebelt

TEPaul

Re: Attributes of Friar's Head?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2003, 06:12:18 AM »
The attributes of Friar's Head?

In my opinion the course pretty much hit a homerun in all the aspects of golf architecture, and as we all know the aspects of golf architecture in the overall can be pretty numerous.

So as not to get too lengthy on a post maybe I'll just write about one or two for now.

The routing:

It's one thing to take a "golf walk" on a not fully "designed up" routing, or even walk it fully finished. But just in the sense of routing structure and variability I can't imagine how the course could be routed much better. Using two vastly different topographies the course flows from the dunes to the flatlands, in/out, out/in, in/out, out/in.

That's really good and doing it more than that probably wouldn't have been structurally possible in a routing sense with any real efficiency nor probably necessary in any other sense. More than that, even if possible (which it isn't), may have been sort of topographically schizophrenic for any golfer given the vast difference in the spectrum from super flatland to some of the wildest natural topography I've ever seen.

I think #1 & #16 bookend the other holes in the dunes well. #1 is one I really would need to play to get a better feel for but #16 was one super gorgeous natural landform that any architect who can say the word shouldn't have missed and probably had to have in a routing sense.

Ran went over all the holes and the flow of them really well in the write-up so no need to do that again. The only little problem areas I could see during construction (Coore basically says that any routing and designing up generally has at least 4-5 little problem areas to overcome somehow) were #2 and #11, the commute from #14 green to #15 tee, the commute from #15  green to #16 tee and the sort of topograpical step down or up from #17 green to #18 tee (wherever that would best be).

I've never played the course, only walked it a few times so how did they deal with those things I felt might be problem areas in a routing sense?

I was afraid there was going to be a real redundancy with #2 and #11--sort of a feeling like; "haven't I played this hole before?". But Ran and others have said that somehow they designed up those two basically similarly routed holes that overcame that potential problem maybe totally.

In a sense these two holes may be remarkably similar to what Geo Crump wanted to do on #2 and #11 at Pine Valley by creating a front nine/back nine "balance" presentation in the same spot on both nines that was both similar in one sense and different in another at the same time. That'a another story that someday should be compared to Friar's #2 and #11.

The next area was the commute from #14 green to #15 tee. It seemed a bit circuitous and steep but there just wasn't any other way. I think it will be an interesting little break, and interesting little roundabout walk and thank God no one pushed to give up on one incredible green site which makes #14 and also a tee site on #15 that just had to be!

The walk from #15 green to #16 tee maybe even more circuitous as it seems you're coming back and walking around but again just like the one from #17 green to #18 tee golfers who have any understanding of routing and natural aspect based architecture should come to see there was just no other way to do it without really compomising natural golf holes or the extraordinary topography of the land itself.

And finally the last three hole stretch basically moving back and forth along a west to east line along the length of the dunes is the best finish the course could or should have. But if you could have seen what once was up there particularly in the 18th hole corridor then you'd really appreaciate how clever and land sensitive Coore and Crenshaw and the Boys can be.

When standing on what is now approximately the 18 tee and looking toward what is now the 18th green I thought if I go down there I'll never be found again. That's how wild that topography was. But when I walked along that hole after it was done I just couldn't see what they'd done exactly and I couldn't remember what it actually used to look like--because the impression was basically the same and they tied-in their created fairway topography perfectly with what was always  on the flanks of that hole corridor (or at least I think it was--that's how well they did it).

That's just the routing but the thing that many more golfers will react to, I'm sure, is how completely they either left things or made things in the overall to seem as if it had always been that way. And that goes all the way from the largest scale stuff to the most minute. The look of naturalism on that course from largest to smallest is simply astounding and pretty much totally complete.

That's the feeling and look to me. Next is what it plays like. I don't know that but from what I've heard that's equally as interesting and impressive as the first part.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag_Bandoon

Re: Attributes of Friar's Head?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2003, 11:53:55 AM »
 It looks, from pictures, to be a wholesouled creation.  Quite a gift to golf and a reflection of reverance for history and nature.  

  Ran, has The Louvre called yet?


  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

Mike Hendren

Re: Attributes of Friar's Head?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2003, 01:07:08 PM »
Jim Kennedy,

Ironically, after reviewing the profile for the umpteenth time, I find the rolling nature of the ninth fairway from both the tee and fairway to be the least-appealing photograph (Note: not necessarily, hole) in the write-up.  It looks, well, modern, with few distinguishing features prevalent in the other photographs.  Stated otherwise, it does not seem to embrace the unique site as do the other holes, IMHO.  LOVE the green contours, however.

Regards,

Mike  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Attributes of Friar's Head?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2003, 01:09:54 PM »
Ran,
The ninth hole stood out for me when reading your write-up.
Playing across a dune ridge with woods all around is an enticing combination and how rare is the amount of thought and time that went into the green? The dogleg right appeals to my selfish side, being a lefty with a draw.

The fairways strike me as another major attribute. They look so rumpled, and some small rumples at that. This randomness will command attention once the ball hits the ground. You won't be bending over to pick up your tee and taking your eyes off your shot here, I'll bet.

Several of the greens seem to have nothing in the way of help for depth perception, like the 6th, really forcing you to use your judgement and pay attention once again.

These may be two of its foremost attributes, a place where you must rely more heavily on your judgement and a place where you must also pay attention to the moment.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Attributes of Friar's Head?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2003, 01:25:19 PM »
Mike,
I was visualizing walking along a crowned? fairway after hitting a shot slightly left side of center that came to rest 30 yds. or so short of the drop off approach to the green. I then thought of how the view behind the green would look at how it might play with me, possibly trying to distract me from the task at hand. Then I was considering the type of shot I would need to hit to get on the proper side of the mound in the green and avoid the bunkering on the left and behind.
Add that to the impressive amount of time thought that went into the construction of the green and the fortuitous land form of the complete hole and you have my reasoning.

Actually the whole course stands out in my mind but the ninth just a bit more. Anyway, it caused me a whole lot of thought, and from just a photo no less! ;D

...I somehow erased my post that was prior to yours so I had to re-post it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: Attributes of Friar's Head?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2003, 01:35:48 PM »
Mike Hendren:

#9 fairway is anything but modern in appearance and play and no one would say the fairway is devoid of a distinguishing feature. You just can't see it at all in the photograph.

It has an enormous ridge running well down the left side of it. When you get out on that fairway you'll definitely see what I mean. I was sure hoping they would leave it as it was naturally and I think basically they have.

But for the shorter driver it will be extremely meaningful, I think, and even in look as you proceed down the hole it very well may be one of the more memorable natural features at Friar's Head. I don't know that a ball would even stay on it but it certainly would be of concern to some if a ball lands on it as to where it may go.

I don't believe they really have it or could do it but if that hole has any remaining tee length elasticity to it that extraordinary ridge will become more meaningful to the degree of the tee length elasticity.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

Mike Benham

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Re: Attributes of Friar's Head?
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2003, 09:39:31 PM »
To me the most interesting attribute is the subtle (and not so subtle) undulations of the greens.  They don't look manufactured and coupled with the size and lack of greenside bunkers on many of the holes, gives the golfer a different view and angle.

Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

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