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Jimmy Muratt

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Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's Head..
« on: February 21, 2003, 06:58:50 AM »
With many of us seeing Friar's Head for the first time, where does it fit into your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5?  I know it's hard to tell from pictures but this may be an exception.  

My top 5:

1.  Sand Hills  
2.  Friar's Head
3.  Cuscowilla
4.  Chechessee Creek
5.  Kapalua Plantation Course
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
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guest

Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2003, 08:01:48 AM »
Now that's Bias! You haven't played the course and you are putting it at #2. I haven't played the course either but have toured the site and it will be a great course but let's not put it at #2 on C/C's list just yet. My guess it will be one of the top 5 new courses in 2003 but it will not be #1.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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J_Olsen

Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2003, 08:08:57 AM »
What was better? I am curious, because I have been all over the country playing new courses and certainly haven't seen anything close to Friar's Head IN PERSON, PLAYING the courses.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tim Weiman

Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2003, 08:26:13 AM »
Guest:

I'd like to go take a look at the course you feel will be rated higher than Friar's Head. Can you share which course that will be and the key features that will lead people to hold it in such high regard?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Hypocrisy Patrol

Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2003, 08:44:44 AM »
Guest
You may be right, but then again you may be wrong.
BUT....by saying that it will not be #1 having not played FH, are you just as guilty as JimmyVA?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jimmy Muratt

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Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2003, 09:09:24 AM »
If you don't want to include Friar's Head in your personal top 5, then simply leave it off the list, not too difficult.  

I also would love to see any of the new courses this year which come even close, as "Guest" says, to topping Friar's Head.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Michael Dugger

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Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2003, 10:14:44 AM »
Boy, is this thread off to a wonderful start.  I just love it when regulars post under fake names and think we do not know who they are.  

There is something to this bias.  Obviously this issue has not been worked out fully.  Can we judge Friar's Head without playing, but based on the photos?  I can see the argumentation behind both sides of this argument.  

I doubt we'll ever agree, but I'm inclined to think in this instance we sort of can.  

I agree, Friar's Head looks like one helluva golf course.  Do I really need to play it to know this????  Is it only when I've played it that I can go from "Friar's Head LOOKS LIKE one helluva golf course" to "Friar's Head IS one helluva golf course."  I feel like Bill Clinton, "AHH, will you please define the word "is".  

Sand Hills
Friar's Head
Hidden Creek
Cuscowilla
Plantation
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

rpurd

Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2003, 10:19:54 AM »
How big is the body of work for Coore/Crenshaw?  Picking a top 5 when they have less than 15 projects is kind of useless?  They may be great, but lets see them put togehter a resume ala Dye or Fazio, never mind the old kings of course architecture.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Joel_Stewart

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Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2003, 10:44:55 AM »
I've played Sand Hills, Cuscowilla and Friars Head and IMHO it's far better than Cuscowilla and in the same class as Sand Hills.  Notice I said same class, not worse, not better.  I mentioned it before on this site that its very similar in the bunkering, undulations etc. and its easy to see the C&C style.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scott_Burroughs

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Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2003, 01:12:50 PM »
Here's C&C's original works (taken from Ben's web site):

The Plantation Club, Kapalua (18 holes; opened 1991); Maui, Hawaii

Barton Creek Club (18 holes; opened 1991); Austin, Texas

Southern Hills Country Club (9 holes; opened 1992); Tulsa, Oklahoma

Sand Hills Golf Club (18 holes; opened June 1995); Mullen, Nebraska

Onion Creek Country Club (9 hole addition opened 1996); Austin, Texas

Klub Rimba Irian (18 holes; opened l996); Kuala Kencana, Indonesia

Cuscowilla Golf Club (18 holes; opened l997) Lake Oconee, Georgia

Talking Stick (36 holes; opened l997) Scottsdale, Arizona

The Warren Golf Course at The University of Notre Dame (l8 holes; opened 2000); South Bend, Indiana

East Hampton Golf Club (18 holes; opened 2000); East Hampton, New York

Austin Golf Club (18 holes; opened 2000); Austin, Texas

Chechessee Creek (18 holes; opened 2000); Spring Island, South

Friar's Head (18 holes; opened 2002); Long Island, New York

Hidden Creek (18 holes; opened 2002); Atlantic City, New Jersey


That makes 15 total, and 13 full 18-hole courses.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

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Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2003, 05:28:49 PM »
1. Plantation
2. Cuscowilla
3. Talking Stick
4. Warren at Notre Dame
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Ran Morrissett

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Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2003, 05:48:59 PM »
JimmyVA,

I wonder if your question is the same as asking to list the five finest pieces of property with which they have had to work? Afterall, C&C never exactly mail in a design, do they? They create the very best course FOR THAT PROPERTY.

When considering the list that I've seen of FH, SH, Kapalua, Hidden Creek, Chechessee, and Cuscowilla, the thing that strikes me first is how amazingly different each course is. I congratulate Joel on being able to pick out a C&C 'style' as I can't.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

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Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2003, 06:25:51 PM »
My number 5 would be at Barton Creek, but that is only since I have only seen 5 of their courses.  BC is vastly overrated, IMHO, and I was very unimpressed with it overall.  

Unfortunately, to me at least, it isn't much of a golf course, and I was very disappointed that this was the work of Coore and Crenshaw, since I am so impressed with the rest of their work that I have experienced.

However, as an aside, the two Fazio courses at Barton Creek were spectacular and I would recommend that when you visit this property, spend your time exploring these two courses and not the C & C course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Ran Morrissett

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Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2003, 07:35:47 PM »
Paul,

Your two posts surprise me.

Coore told me that the BC course was built right after/during the Plantation course and that both courses share some similar playing characteristics.

I find it odd that you love one and clearly don't even like the other?

I haven't seen BC to comment.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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DMoriarty

Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2003, 09:42:59 PM »
Quote
How big is the body of work for Coore/Crenshaw?  Picking a top 5 when they have less than 15 projects is kind of useless?  They may be great, but lets see them put togehter a resume ala Dye or Fazio, never mind the old kings of course architecture.

rpurd.  
Had I not seen some of your past posts I'd have thought you were joking.  If I am not mistaken, CB MacDonald designed, co-designed, or redesigned between 15-20 courses.  Should we discount his contribution to architecture?  Would it be "useless" to compare/rate his courses?  Had MacKenzie only designed four American courses (say . . . Augusta, Cypress, Valley Club, Pasatiempo) would this greatly discount his contribution to American golf architecture?  


A resume ala Dye or Fazio?  Did you ever think that one reason C&C might be "great" is that they have absolutely no desire to have a bulky resume like Dye or Fazio?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
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Joel_Stewart

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Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2003, 09:56:03 PM »

Quote
I congratulate Joel on being able to pick out a C&C 'style' as I can't.

Cheers,

Perhaps its style or attributes or similarities or characteristics or whatever, the wide rolling fairways, the bunkering, the huge push up greens, the strategic use of the wind are all very similar at Sand Hills and Friars Head.  Kenny disagreed with me on this as well but I played Sand Hills an Friars Head within a month of each other and I thought the way the courses are laid out I used the same thought process for playing many shots.

Ran: You don't see any similarities between Sand Hills and Friars Head?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Steve L.

Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2003, 10:07:12 PM »
According purely to photographs, reviews, and input from others who have played some of these (I've only played TSN and TSS) here is mine:

1 - Sand Hills
2 - Friars Head
3 - Plantation @ Kapalua (notched down only because of the residential/resort influence & cart need)
4 - Cuscowilla
5 - Talking Stick North

Might be an interesting discussion as to C&C's best individual holes....  A following thread perhaps...?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tim Weiman

Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2003, 03:47:46 AM »
Dave Moriarty:

I completely agree with your comments to "rpurd".

What was he thinking? Quantity over quality?


mdugger:

You may know who "guest" is, but I don't. However, I just wish whoever it is would share the new projects/courses he feels might rank with or surpass Friar's Head. If he feels praise for Friar's Head is already out of control, fine. Go ahead and share the others he feels are worth traveling to see and play.

Can't our dialogue mature to that level?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

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Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2003, 07:55:27 AM »
Ran:

Frankly I find it hard to believe that the Plantation and the Barton Creek course were even done by the same architects!

To me, the Plantation is spectacular.  We have visited this topic before here on GCA, but, IMHO, it should be MUCH higher on the top 100 lists.

On the other hand, the Crenshaw/Coore course at Barton is just blah.  The only memorable feature was the 18th green, tucked just over the wash.  The rest of the course is, frankly, not memorable in the least.  

As I said, when you go to Barton, hit the two Fazio's instead.  They are both excellent courses.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

K.Hegland

Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2003, 02:29:19 PM »
Paul:
What the C&C course @ Barton Creek has working against it is that it is just not maintained to best suit the design intent.  Its just kept to green and soft to adequatly accept the bumps, runs, and other shots of imagination.  I think its a good course and would prefer it to the Fazio pair, in my humble opinion.  

Ran:
I couldn't agree with you more on how C&C designs the course to the piece of property instead of vice versa.  I wouldn't be suprised if they could take piece of property that was flat and dull and make it fun to play! (Same goes for Doak and Devries)  So when they get something extrodinary (ie SH, and FH) well you get something special.  

On another note, Austin Golf Club will continue to elude many rankings/talk because if its nature, but it is a wonderful golf course, as fast and firm as a course can get mixed with great design/routing equals fun fun fun
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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mike_beene

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Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2003, 09:37:28 PM »
When you look at the body of work it should be remembered that,especially in their early years C&C did a lot of renovation work without seeking huge publicity.Their presence essientially has saved some classic courses from the hands of others who would ruin them.At my home course they redid the course to its original plan after many years of screwy changes.This summer they will redo the greens,add new tees and add 5 or 6 new fairway bunkers.If it weren't for their willingness to do this kind of follow up(its been 10 years)there is no telling who we might have hired that would have ruined the course.My point:while not as high profile,saving a great course is every bit as important as creating new and they deserve to have those counted among their body of work.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Gene Greco

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Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2003, 10:31:01 AM »
Kyle:

    "....C&C take a flat piece of land and make it fun to play."

Play both courses at Talking Stick in AZ. Featureless land was turned into a couple of gems.

I've played most of their courses. All their courses maximize the use of the natural features of the land to create the best course that could possibly be built. Its not all genius;  it takes time to sense all the nuances of the land, something which C&C take pride in doing and something which many others do not.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

mike_beene

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Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2003, 08:41:28 PM »
Gene,does Talking Stick have any elevation change at all?If I could only play one,which would you suggest?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Craig Van Egmond

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Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2003, 08:54:23 PM »

Mike,

   Not Gene, but here's my two cents:

   I think there was a total of 6 feet of elevation change on the whole Talking Stick property before they started. There is some movement to the ground but not a lot.

   I like the North course the best, but the South is no slouch, although it kind of gets a bad rap.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Craig Van Egmond

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Re: Your Coore/Crenshaw Top 5, now with Friar's He
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2003, 08:55:55 PM »
Ok, here's my top 5...

Kapalua Plantation
Talking Stick North
Talking Stick South

Ok, so I only have played 3.   :)  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
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