[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tommy Naccarato,

I don't think its just a possibility, I think it's likely.

I'd hypothosize that that influence surpasses Fazio's

And that Fazio would just be following the line, instead of choosing to not consult and having his good name connected with changes that might not be in the best nature for Pine Valley?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

If you don't know the details with respect to Fazio's engagement at Pine Valley, I think it's irresponsible to draw the conclusions you draw on his involvement with every change.

How can you make such wild, broad based allegations without having one iota of supporting information, documents or minutes from meetings that take place at Pine Valley.

Before you condemn the man, you should at least determine his level of involvement on each and every change.

Who do you want to blame for the changes made to Pine Valley before Fazio appeared on the scene ?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
Is Tom Fazio the consulting architect at Pine Valley? (Yes or No)

What are the levels of responsibility that an architect takes when offering his services to the club, whether he is being paid or offering them free of charge/pro bono?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I'm not assigning blame for what occured there beforehand. What I'm doing is wondering why he hasn't shown them the promised land.

Patrick, Do you think that Tom Fazio is doing a good job at Pine Valley.  No, wait a second! Make it, "If your the Chairman of Pine Valley, you have complete autrocratic control, just like you did at Boca Rio, Would you be happy with the job that Tom Fazio has done so far? And even yes or no, what architect(s) would you be looking to for direction?

[Forrest Richardson]

Most golf courses are stronger and they also live longer than most men.

I find the discussions about tinkering with courses to be — very often — silly. I think this is especially true when there is so much more to talk about: New courses, new ideas, and new blood.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Most golf courses are stronger and they also live longer than most men.

Forrest,

Are you saying that if a course lives long enough, sooner or later it is going to need a hip (or something) replaced?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

How do you know what Fazio recommended or didn't recommend ?

And, if you don't, how can you make a qualitative judgement on the work that was done ?

He may be the consulting architect, but that doesn't mean he makes the final decsions, or any decisions with regard to what gets done to the golf course.

Pine Valley has always had rather authoritative figures/dictators who are responsible for the direction and decisions that influence the golf course.

For you to grant Fazio an equal vote, or even a vote reflects a lack of understanding on how things are done at PV.

[SPDB]

The following post is trying to be done in the same thoughtful vein as Sean's, and where accusations run supreme--after all, we are all friends here right?

Sean,
Once again you prove that critique can and does get to you.

My dislike of Tom Fazio stems from his inability in properly giving sound advice to every classic courses he consults with, or what YOU think is actually good work.

You want to talk about drive-by killings? So far we have the magical changes at Riviera, the introduction of a style of golf architecture that sticks out like a sore thumb at Bel Air #8; A sypathetic restoration to 1931 Merion which features a bunker style that never existed; Mayan pyramid tees at Oakmont that they're already talking about getting rid of; the built-up Tillinghast bunker style of Winged Foot that even Pat Mucci admits he doesn't care for; Destruction of the best holes at Inverness and others ad infinitum.

So when we talk about drive-bys, I understand, because as a golf course lover I'm usually on the recieving end of the gunfire in my hood, and usually its "Masta T" Fazio and his cru that's doing the shooting.

No matter where Dr. Fazio performs his surgery on classic courses--it is atrocious, and thats what worries me the most about Pine Valley. Certainlly a neighborhood that doesn't need that type of gang hanging around looking at ways to make the next dollar.

Tommy - Unfair (and gratuitous) criticism leveled on pure speculation is what "gets" to me (see Del Paso CC thread).

This thread has become yet another vehicle for your unending "critique" of Fazio. I won't quibble w/ you w/r/t work done elsewhere, as I think some of it is atrocious (excepting Merion).

Nevertheless, you've based this whole thread around the "look" of a hole that Fazio may (and, indeed, probably) never touched.

What's more, you haven't identified what it is about "the look" that you object to, except to offer strawmen abstractions about rough vs. clean. Who wants PV clean? Besides tree growth, I fail to see any substantive difference in the maintenance of 14 from the earlier pictures (except that it looks a lot better than 1980s pic).

Again, what is the date of your picture? I suspect that your reluctance to answer that simple question is that it might disclose the error of this thread.

I think your memory of the 14th hole from your lone visit to Clementon has been hopelessly colored by the knowledge that Fazio has been retained by the club. Stripped of this knowledge, I suspect you might conclude that the picture you posted depicts a hole that is in far better shape than when you played it. Granted, that it could stand a lot more tree removal, but I suspect you don't need Fazio to tell you that.

Perhaps you believe Fazio advised the club to plant old growth trees around the hole?  

[George Pazin]

I made no assertion that I believed Fazio was responsible for the setup, whether judged by the photos or not. I simply pointed out to Sean how Tommy's posts allow one to infer his position quite easily and clearly. Since Sean frequently objects to Pat's tactics, I thought I'd point out an instance in which he was doing much the same.

I did clearly state that we'll never know exactly what Fazio has done or to what degree his influence is felt without direct input from a PV member, which I don't expect anytime soon.

Judging by everyone's posts, particularly TEP's, Pat's and redanman's, the cleaning has been going on gradually for quite a while. While I prefer a more rustic look (and unlike JohnK, I believe the look in this instance does relate directly to playability), I support the club's right to do whatever they choose.

I also believe personally that Forrest's shrug your shoulders and accept that any change is to be welcomed is the most dangerous attitude in the preservation of universally acknowledged great works, and hope that no green committee take this advice or attitude to heart.

[SPDB]

George -
I don't think my approach can be described as Mucci-esque. If it is, then perhaps I've misunderstood Pat. I suspect the former is true.

The subtle difference is that, like the Torrey Pines, I see no assertion made by asking a question. However, in this particular instance, Tommy made a statement of negative opinion, based on a total absence of fact. He is, of course, free to his opinions, but where it can be shown he is either mistaken or doesn't care about the very thing on which he bases his opinion, that he perhaps should qualify it in some other way.

He's forced the same pressuring questions on me (e.g. with regard to certain of my Coore/Crenshaw and Friar's Head opinions) so I didn't think he would object to mine.

[SPDB]

Also, you didn't answer my question regarding what makes you prefer the older 14th to the newer one, leaving aside tree growth?

[George Pazin]

Sorry, missed the question (I tend to skim at times).

First of all, saying "except for the trees" is a pretty big exception for me. The trees are the main thing I object to in the photo.

Second, it is tough for me to say from that first photo that things are too clean at PV. Hate to sound like Pat , but I need more evidence to come to that conclusion.

Third, the comparison is to a painting. As much as I LOVE Mike Miller's work, it is indeed a painting and not a photo from historical archives.

My general preference is for a less maintained look - I like the look (sorry Barn) and I also like the uncertainty associated with it from a playability standpoint.

I have no idea what Fazio is responsible for at PV (or pretty much anywhere else), but I do think the answers to your questions to Tommy are pretty clear. I don't think he has any specific knowledge of TF's input, but believes he the fact that he is continually trumpeted as the consulting architect at PV means that he should work toward a more natural look (which is Tommy's goal, not necessarily the goal of TF or the PV green committee). I think he infers from the current setup that TF's influence is being felt in a "cleaner, more playable" PV. I could be wrong in my interpretation of Tommy's view, but I do think the answers to your questions are in there somewhere. I think we all read into everyone else's posts - Lord knows, I have had some mighty strong inferences and suspicions drawn from my posts that were not usually intended - and in this case, I think the answers are quite clear.

[SPDB]

George - Brian posted a photo on page 2 of the hole just after seeding, I presumed that's what your impression was based on.

You need more evidence of the current state, yet Tommy can come to the conclusion that the hole evinces what he doesn't like about Tom F. even if the hole may have been outside of Fazio's scope of work?

The only thing that is different about the hole is the trees, a conclusion you hardly need an architect for.

I don't believe that Tom Fazio has been "continually trumpeted" as the consulting architect to PV. In fact, I think it has only been disclosed to the Discussion group in the last few months.

Although I would ordinarily not advise aligning yourself (or anyone  ) with Pat M. On this score he is right. You must try to resist the temptation to fall into the flawed camp headed by TommyN. You'll have to assume the risk of relying on his memory, which, from the sound of it on this thread, is long gone.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

George,
Your spot on again. If I sneeze and it sounds like Fazio, Sean is going to find fault in the sneeze.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean Berry says: Nevertheless, you've based this whole thread around the "look" of a hole that Fazio may (and, indeed, probably) never touched.

What's more, you haven't identified what it is about "the look" that you object to, except to offer strawmen abstractions about rough vs. clean. Who wants PV clean? Besides tree growth, I fail to see any substantive difference in the maintenance of 14 from the earlier pictures (except that it looks a lot better than 1980s pic).

Again, what is the date of your picture? I suspect that your reluctance to answer that simple question is that it might disclose the error of this thread.

Sean, When I was there in 2000, I was told the trees had been cleared on #14, exposing a lot of the hole that had hadn't been seen in years. Trees grow, and Fazio is the consulting architect. What's his job then?  For someone that loves Pine Valley so much as he, given his relationship with the club as both a member and consulting golf architect, you would think he had the same views of the club to suggest what needs the course has and what should be attended to.  If the club choses to not listen, then he should do something about it. If they do listen, then they should do something about it. CLEAR THE DAMN TREES! EXPOSE SOME SAND IN THAT BACK CORNER! MAKE IT LOOK LIKES AT PINE VALLEY, NOT PINE HILL!

[SPDB]

Tommy - please, for the last time, what is the date of your picture?

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

The date of the picture is a critical factor.

It shouldn't be that hard to obtain.

I've played there for forty years and don't see any dramatic change in what I experienced over the years and that photo.

[Brian_Gracely]

SPDB,

The date of the picture is a critical factor.

It shouldn't be that hard to obtain.

I've played there for forty years and don't see any dramatic change in what I experienced over the years and that photo.

The picture is from the book "Legendary Golf Clubs of the American East", http://www.edgewortheditions.com/Lengendary_US_frame.htm.  It began shipping in Oct 2003.  Assuming the research & writing took approximately 18 months, then the picture is most likely from anywhere summer of 2001 and summer of 2003.

[George Pazin]

In my current sleep deprived state, I forgot about the other photos that Brian posted. I infinitely prefer the open look, with few trees, post seeding, but it difficult to tell just how clean the setup is on the b&w and the 1983 photos (difficult for me, at least).

In this particular instance, I can't condemn Fazio because I don't know his role. However, I can understand Tommy's position, and if anyone thinks Fazio's role hasn't been trumpeted, his head has been in the ground. In virtually every article, as well as almost every time I've seen him interviewed on TV (during the recent event at Mirasol, for instance), much has been made of his involvement with the big name clubs like PV, ANGC, Merion, Riviera, etc. My gut tells me his input at PV is far less than his input at ANGC and Riviera, but who really knows?

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Pazin,

My gut tells me his input at PV is far less than his input at ANGC and Riviera, but who really knows?

And, if we don't know, then we can't make qualitative judgements, can we ?

[George Pazin]

George Pazin,

My gut tells me his input at PV is far less than his input at ANGC and Riviera, but who really knows?

And, if we don't know, then we can't make qualitative judgements, can we ?

Obviously, I have no problem speculating....

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Pazin,

I have no problem with speculation as long as it's indicated, but condemnation is a little strong without all of the facts.

[SPDB]

I like this new feeling of detente

[SPDB]

Tommy - don't ignore us.  

[SPDB]

Yo Tommy! Let's go! When are we playing Pelican Hill? I think you owe 2 apologies - one to Tom Fazio for false attribution, and one to Rick Christian, for fraudulent misrepresentation.

 

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