[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

The cost of property on Apoquoge Way is less expensive then oceanfront property, but I'm only speaking from personal involvement, what's your source ?

Mike Sweeney,

Let's meet and play there one day in late April or May.

[Mike_Sweeney]

SPDB,

The cost of property on Apoquoge Way is less expensive then oceanfront property, but I'm only speaking from personal involvement, what's your source ?

Mike Sweeney,

Let's meet and play there one day in late April or May.

Patrick,

If we get SPDB to play with us, will we make it past the 2nd tee?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Sweeney,

It depends on how late he is due to his appointment with an Easthampton Real Estate Broker.

I intend to get in at least 18 holes, maybe 36.

Based on your having played the golf course numerous times, why do you think this course hasn't gotten more recognition ?

[Mike_Sweeney]

Pat,

1. It is just that much farther from The Hamptons (than LI National) that it gets more traffic on the way out and back on Friday's and Sunday's. It is tough because so much of their traffic comes on 10-12 weekends during the summer, that they struggle out there during the week to keep the course filled.

2. Most of my old buddies that I played with @ LI National still preferred LI National mainly due to the shortness of Tall Grass.

3. The management team was originally a company from Texas, now I believe it is run by the sod family who are not golfers.

4. I think that 90+% of the golfers don't care about what we care about. My guess is that many Long Island golfers will now want to play Friar's Head due to GW !!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Sweeney,

But, Friar's Head is private, Tall Grass is public.
So why is it the Rodney Dangerfield of Eastern LI Golf ?

[JDoyle]

Tommy,

I played this course with Michael Sweeney and because of his recommendation.  I loved it.  In fact, I was so surprised by the creative holes on a super average piece of property that I called a fellow GCAer from the course to tell him to change his plans for the next day and to get himself to this gem.  I am convinced that it is only a mater of time until enough people play this course and we see it's profile rise.  I think Tall Grass may get a little lost in the weeds due to the fact that is surrounded by courses with worldclass reputations.

The course is a little shorter than most new course, however, the land limitation probably served to better the course as Gil had to overcome this limitation - perhaps as Ross did at Wannamoisett.  Regardless, the end result is a very walkable 18 holes that never feel repetitive or tired.  There is strategy, great bunkering and wind.....not a bad combination.

The 1st hole is an easy par five, but it feels like an old fashioned warm-up hole with a green complex that consistently steals par from many players...ala NGLA.

I also loved the gamble you face on the 4th tee.  Whether or not to go for this uphill par 4 with one swing and risk the severe bunkers....I loved the hole, it certainly gets the blood pumping.

Anyone GCAer who makes it a point to play on LI each year should make the effort to see Tall Grass.  I for one can't wait to make plans to see more of Gil's work.

[JakaB]

Sometimes here on GCA we talk of architects who were given flat sites and created something out of nothing. What Gil and Co. did here is nothing short of a miracle, when one sees the amount of movement in comparing it to the property that surrounds the entire area that was just like it before it was a golf course.

Nothing short of a miracle...The propaganda machine and GCA rater network is at it again.  If they got Kingsley to 22..how far can this course be behind.  They just need to dilute the votes of the locals...who are obviously blinded by the more expensive and private venues.   I think Tommy took a course in the Fazio 200 top 20 courses theory of recognition..or respect so to say.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

As I recall Tallgrass and LI National were underway roughly the same time.  Both owners, particularly LI National excavated large quantities of sand, and exported it off property to sell.  Subsequently, local towns put restrictions on how much if any material could be exported off the property.  At the time sand may have been a hot commodity for construction.  I think LI National was something in the magnitude of 500,000 cy that was shipped off site but I could very well be wrong.  It really complicated the approval process for other projects because the exportation really pissed off some locals.  But, the owners mde money on selling the material which probably paid for the courses.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

I would agree that evaluation of a golf course should only be made after playing it, and not based on viewing aerials or ground level photos.

But, it does seem that very little is heard about this golf course.  I found this same strange silence with respect to Applebrook, hence my curiosity was peaked.

Kelly Blake Moran,

I don't understand the locals position with respect to the exportation of soil.

If a house is built, and a foundation dug out for the basement and/or lower flaors, towns, for centuries have been permiting the exportation of that soil.  
Why the sudden change of heart ?  What harm is done ??

[Mike_Sweeney]

Patrick,

Kelly's observations were also in the Town of Riverhead for LI National and I forget the Town that Tall Grass is in. Think what is coming in the Town of Southampton

A local SH friend recently told me about the recent approvals for Bayberry, Tom Doak has mentioned something about a couple of weeks a Board meeting is coming. I think they are in fantasy land in terms of what has yet to pop out at Bayberry. I certainly could be wrong, but history (Easthampton, The Bridge) suggest otherwise.

Gotta run.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Pat,

When you are exporting a large quantity of material off site that means several trips back and forth by large dump trucks.  So their objections would be based upon traffic.  Removing several hundred thousand CY from a site is far more than a few basements  

Also, regarding some opposition I can only explain by saying that some locals just don't appreciate someone coming in and making money next door to them.  I think they resent what they preceive to be wealthy developers getting wealthier.  When you really look at the large number of people employed on a project, and the jobs created after the project is done it amazes me that people think the only person that benefits from a large scale projects are the "evil developer."  Stop there for a second, and I think it is valid to point out that there is nothing wrong with a wealthy person getting wealthier.

In some instances you have blue collar people excercising their "Michael Moore" tendencies to distrust the big money developer and try to shut down the project that if approved will employ and enrich blue collar people.  I do not think some people think it through.  Now they may oppose based on other grounds, fine, but I have heard it many times, "why the hell should we let these guys come into our community, develop our farm land, make a ton of money and split."  Well, you go talk to the equipment operators that work for the excavation company in your community and tell them you oppose them making money, because that is what you are saying.  And you can multiply the blue collar workers that will be on that project well beyond equipment operators.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mike, They don't think its long enough?  Do you think this attitude is because of the popularity of Bethpage Black and its bruttish-tough moxy that may be dictating this need for length?

I do know this for sure, if Tallgrass is anywhere here in SoCal, its going to be packed because its:

-Unique design
-Somewhat affordable cost to play
-Isn't on the side of a hill
-It looks to be pretty challenging

Look at it this way also.

If you were on the Monterey Penninsula playing all of those great courses, and someone told you, "Hey! Have you ever checked out Pacific Grove?" You would probably think they were a loon until you got out there and saw some pretty fun, unique and natural feeling golf--given its on a realy cool point with the wind and ocean smell dictating the moment. But what would the avg. NY golfer think of it in regards to length?

While Tallgrass doesn't have an oceanfront property working for it in overdrive, I do think the golf is just as fun, and to me, 6500+ yards at par 71 is still a nice length for a public facility. In fact, I would rather be playing a full 18 holes at Pacific Grove or Tallgrass anyday in comparison to say Pelican Hill, which has the length; the big classy clubhouse and all of the immenities that most O.C. Golfers that can afford to play it, need.

Jonathan, I shared your same attitude when there last June. I was really surprized just how cool this place really was and in consideration to the courses I had played that week, especially the course I was playing later that day, I think that was a pretty good thing!

JakassaB,
Better take another Zoloft this morning. Please do know we all love you, but hate you for not seeing or realizing it.

[Mike Worth]

Just my 2 cents, but having played both Appplebrook and Tallgrass, I'd say this:

Tallgrass isn't overly long, and there are some nice features out there, some nice variety and a chance to hit alot of different shots.  Tallgrass doesn't really beat you up at all, it's a course to go have fun for a day in a place (Long Island) where there is not much public golf.   Top 100 course, I don't think so, but I don't think that was the objective of the developer.  

I don't know why Applebrook doesn't receive more consideration for top 100 by any of the Golf Magazines.   It's a fun, sporty course with alot of challenging holes.  If I had to offer a criticism (on a scale of 1-10, this would be a 2), I'd say that #1 and # 10 could be longer, and I've always thought 2 of the par 3s (#5 and #17) seemed a bit too similar.  #7, 8, 9, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16 and 18 are great holes that really challenge you.  Some pretty good short par 4s in #2, #3 and #12 too.  

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mike, They don't think its long enough?  Do you think this attitude is because of the popularity of Bethpage Black and its bruttish-tough moxy that may be dictating this need for length?

Tommy,

I don't think it is length of course as much as too many short fours, again in their opinion. In a 10 dates at Tall Grass vs LI National (the public's National vs Shinnecock) I would take 6 at TG and 4 at LIN. My friends would probably be 7 and 3 the other way.

By the way under the radar is okay for me as I really do not want to sleep in my car to play Tall Grass It was great when BB was sort of a sleeper.

[Matt_Ward]

David Kelly:

The difference between Rustic Canyon and Tallgrass is quite wide. Those who are big fans of the Moorpark layout will not see the level of overall sophistication and detail that you see there. RC has the better overall routing and the greater array of holes. There are a few greens of serious caliber at Tallgrass -- I really like the hump just in front of the par-3 17th, but people need to also highlight a number of limitations as well.

Tallgrass is on a very ordinary site -- a former sod farm if memory serves. Gil dressed the course up quite well given the limitations of the terrain but if one wants to see better public layouts on the Island there are several of them IMHO that are a good bit better -- and I'm not basing that on the absence of length.

P.S. Mike S. -- you're absolutely right about two things -- the horrific pace of play -- they could place Sunday NY Times at a number of holes to keep you busy before you zzzz -- sadly that's a fact on most LI public courses and the need to play from the maximum tips in order to add some real spice. One other thing that should help the course is the growth of the roughs in order to provide a striking contrast between the grasses. This will also keep people from taking liberties off the tee like the par-4 16th and the par-4 18th, to name just two.

One other recommendation that I would make for those who can gain access and it's relatively nearby is Kelly's work at Laurel Links -- there are a few greens there that truly require great care when playing them.

[Mike Worth]

I didn't know they had limited play by raters at Applebrook - I have not heard that one.  My previous impression was that Applebrook was accessible, being just outside of Philadelphia, and that it would be pretty simple for a rater to see it.  

[Mike_Cirba]

SS1;

Au contraire.

I have a good rater friend who's played every course in the state of New Jersey and close to 1000 courses overall who has not been able to arrange a game (and no, it's not Matt) at Applebrook.  

It's a superb course.

[Mike Worth]

I think Matt played Applebrook.  That's what I'm told.  Maybe the club doesn't want the attention.  That's possible too.  

[Jeff Fortson]

Some more thoughts...

Tallgrass isn't necessarily long and doesn't have the views of water or other eye pleasing features.  What it does have are some of the best green complexes of any public course in NY and tons of strategic value.  Lots of decisions to be made here.

When comparing Tallgrass to LI National I would choose Tallgrass 9 times out of 10.

I have reason to love LI National as I got past Local Qualifying for the US open there in 2001 but I found it to be extremely penal.  Over-the-top penal.  There are very few choices to be made at LI National.  It's the kind of place where you feel like your being dragged behind the back of a pickup that is driving 50mph.  You're just holding on for dear life.  

Tallgrass is a far superior golf course if you are looking to enjoy a round of golf with opportunities to play well, regardless of your skill level.  Those that are more masochistic will like LI National more as it can deliver the kind of pummeling they enjoy.  


Jeff F.


P.S.:  By the way is #14 at Tallgrass Gil's version of a "Short" hole?  It's a really neat par-3 with a very interesting green complex.  I always wondered if that is what he was going for in that hole.

[Pete Lavallee]

Glad to see Tall Grass get some respect here on GCA. Tommy's right, if this course were located in So. Cal. it would be overrun, guess you East Coasters are lucky to have your hidden gems uncrowded. There are many similarities between Rustic canyon and Tall Grass: like severe trouble just over the green, the steep fall off behind the 295 yard 6th and the nasty little pot bunker just behind the 9th green make golfers think twice about attacking a back pin there. I think that having a strateic driveable par 4 on each nine is an asset not a liability. The 14th hole is another example of having the guts to build a 125 yard par 3, very similar to the 8th at RC. Here's a shot of the 14th, 143 yards from the back tee:

[blasbe1]

Tallgrass is a v. good tract that doesn't get the recognition it derserves.  It combines fun (my wife and I played the short par 4 12th in a combined score of 5) and a solid design (the short 3 par 14th and hidden green on 17 are two features of note).  I've played it 3 or 4 times in varying conditions and somehow leave the course feeling a little flat (pun intended) in part because of what I would call a lack of framing to many holes.  The surrounding area is so flat that some of the course gets washed out.  Unlinke LI National, very few large mounds were built and no internal trees exist, thus there is little to prevent the eye from simply wandering off the canvas toward the horizon.  #18 seems to be a perfect example as it is very difficult to even pick a line of play off the tee.  

 

[DMoriarty]

I havent played Tallgrass or Applebrook, so I cant comment on whether either deserves more respect.  But if Gil Hanse's other designs are similar stylistically to Rustic, then he is at a substantial disadvantage when it comes to garnering acclaim from the traditional sources.  

Subtle. low profile features and understated design dont necessarily show well upon one viewing.  And, while regulars have years to figure these things out, raters generally have one quick play.  Usually while they are on their way to bigger and flashier things.

The raters think they can figure all this stuff out in one look, but this of course is just further evidence of the problem.  

[Mike_Cirba]

David;

In fairness, I think you might want to say "some" raters.  

I have a different take.

Rustic Canyon is probably the most conventional of Gil Hanse's courses I've played.  His courses at Inniscrone and French Creek contain any number of holes that are extremely different, somewhat controversial, and much more geared towards match-play mentality than the card and pencil approach.  

I've heard ratings of those courses differing by as much as six full points among various raters who've seen them.  They are loved by many (and most here) and hated by others.  

I think his adventurous style is refreshing and intriguing.  

[THuckaby2]

Concur completely, David - only I don't think many raters, if they are honest, have the arrogance to think they can fully figure out courses like this in one look.  Unfortunately though, one look is often all they have, and thus courses like this shall continue to be at a disadvantage in the ratings.  I'm not sure if anything can be done to fix this, other than have these courses just be content in what they are:  much loved by their regulars, if not fully understood by course raters.

[David Kelly]

The raters think they can figure all this stuff out in one look, but this of course is just further evidence of the problem.  

They all do? Where do you come by this opinion?

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