[THuckaby2]

Wow!  I leave for an hour or so and I miss this great exchange.  Oh well, great stuff, all of you.

Shivas - I hear what you're saying, really I do pahdnah.  But I also think there is a definite benefit to going right - as these regulars explain - which at the very least makes it worth considering!  And Dave is right - it's not just a can you issue, it's a should you.  That alone makes it not the cut and dried affair you state.  Just the fact quite a few very experienced golfers are debating here would seem to prove this to me:  these are not simple choices going on on this hole.

I think Dan G. just explained it very well also... you also must factor in which shot you prefer... Then on top of that, the competitive situation would add to the deliberation also... by that I mean, if I absolutely need a 4, and 3 isn't desparately required, then I start favoring the left more.  If I must have a 3, I go right for sure because I can't see making many threes from the right.  Then if 5 is gonna kill me, I go back to favoring left, like I said before.  All this adds to the evidence that this is not a simple decision.

Then you factor in what David M. just wrote, and wow, there's even more to it... I can understand all of that... Man I find this a very tough decision.

Anyway, to Tommy, all of the above just speaks to this one hole, which on which I find maddening choices to be made.  And yes I do love it.  And yes there is a LOT of this going on at Rustic Canyon, which makes it great.  And whereas I do believe that courses like this that have maddening choices are the best, the most fun to play both once and repeatedly, well... You do also understand that I have only played the course once, right?

I do think courses -  and wine - that reveal a bit more each time one plays/drinks them are the best, for sure.  But I'm also not ready to say one can't get a pretty damn good feel for a course in one visit, if one is aware and trying to do so.   Not the BEST or MOST COMPLETE sense of the course, without a doubt... But enough to know if they want to come back, or if they would recommend it to their friends, or enough to come up with a number for a rating system, especially taking into account the fact that it's not very realistic to expect anyone to play the course the VAST number of times required to get this full understanding, in order to make these assessments.

Long live #7!  And yes, it remains a drag we won't get to "prove" all this in a few weeks.  But hell, there is so much else there to try to figure out, discuss and dissect, we'll live without the tee shot on 7.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Ps to Dave and other regulars:  can you speak to the wisdom of going farther left, way out to the end of that fairway?  I've heard there's a benefit to that as well.  Do you guys ever try that?

[Mike Benham]

5 or 6 iron.

I've seen Dan hit a "5 or 6 iron"[/i] and the only relevance to a normal person (like myself) hitting a 5 or 6 is the number on the bottom of the club ...

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Dave, I also want to add that I have certain shots at Rustic Canyon that are the bain of my existence. (I enjoy the challenge though)

They are:

-The shot to the green on #1 to get it close to the hole, instead of faced with a putt over 15 feet or more.
-The approach to the green on #2, which I gamble on. If I don't make it over from my usual spot in the fairway, I'm in the bunker, where I somehow have this deft touch of putting it on the green as one-putting for par.
-As mentioned, the approach to #7.
-The tee shot on #10 has always semingly given me fits. Many here who have witnessed it will attest.
-The tee shot on #11, which I have nver played anywhere but the back tee because that is where the hole should be layed from for a guy like me; always wanting the sporting challenge.
-The approach to the green on #12; Just when I think I have it, I lose it on the next time out!
-The second shot on #13, which inevitably has me crying out, "New Jersey!" I have to play it from in there every time.
-The tee shot on #14, which has intimidated me, kicked me in the knutensacks, knived-me, laughed at me, taunted-me, etc.
-The 2nd shot in on #16 is for me is one of the funnest shots on the course, and after many times of not knowing how to play it, I think I have finally got it down. No matter if its my 2nd or 3rd shot!

Rustic Canyon is the type of golf course where when I enter the gates, my heart starts pumping more and more--I'm that excited to play it. I don't get that at many golf courses anymore--that over-anxious thrill. In fact, I can tell you that is my one big if not huge factor of knowing a golf course is going to be good is when I'm scared silly. You should have seen the look on my face at NGLA.

I hope I'm making my point.

[THuckaby2]

5 or 6 iron.

I've seen Dan hit a "5 or 6 iron"[/i] and the only relevance to a normal person (like myself) hitting a 5 or 6 is the number on the bottom of the club ...

That thought had occurred to me as well.  I don't think club choice is relevant to this... Dan's 5 iron is likely equivalent to my 3wood.  

[Mike Benham]

I love you for this, but dammit, I swear that sometimes you would see a strategic dilemma in fricking breathing!    Hmm.. let's see...what are my options?  Nose or mouth?  Which way is the wind blowing?  What is the air quality like today?  How well have I been breathing so far today?  Will I have any opportunities to mouth-breath later in the round?  What are the ramifications of nose breathing at this point in the round?  Does a good nose breath now set up an easy mouth breathe next?  How good do my lungs feel?  How's my breath?  What did I eat for lunch?  Oh, crap, a burrito with onions  , But I just had a Tic-Tac, further adding to the complexity....  Can I mouth breath?  Should I mouth breath?  Oh, the agony of this decision.  

As Huck would say ... audible yucks on this one ...

[sonofalawyer]

on the question of going farther left in the layup area...

i say, if the pin is in the back of the green, this is the smart play.  there is actually a little, flat approach avenue to pins tucked back here.  you wouldn't know about it probably until you'd played the hole a couple, three times.

if the pin is elsewhere on the green, i don't see much advantage.  you still have to land a 9 or wedge on or around the two mumps on this devilish green.

[Andy_Lipschultz]

It is a tremendous hole. I'm sorry you KP3ers won't be playing it. Another thing about the lay-up: When the pin is back (left) you have a very difficult pitch if you are on the left side or even the center of the fairway (lay-up side). It's a tiny area of  green to hit. That also figures into my decision.

That said, I nearly always go for it unless the combination of wind and tee marker gives me pause.

[THuckaby2]

Thanks, son.  Some very reliable sources I've talked you to agree with you and explain it nearly exactly the same way.

But then trying to go that far left adds to the risk... going though, too far left, or drifting right into the hazard in the attempt...

More to factor in.

[Andy_Lipschultz]

Son: I love it; we have the exact opposite reaction to the back pin!

[THuckaby2]

Fantastic!  More proof that it's not a simple hole...

Andy - will you be joining us 3/27-28?  If not, you surely should... same goes to everyone else in this thread who may not be signed up already... Dave is the organizer and from what he said in the other thread, there may be room... come on out and show us in person how this is all done!  Man, the more Rustic regulars the better, I think.  I want to cheat off your wisdom.  

[Jeff Fortson]

Just to piss some people off, at the KPII if #7 is playing as a par 4, I'm going to lay up.  


Jeff F.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, Thanks for bringing that up. Yes, there is a benefit of going way left--you can see the green much better, but I think its a much more aggresive play from over there. I have never had any luck with it and have only played it from there when I pull it over there. One could probably have little problem with the modern ball in holding the green coming from that angle, but not for me.  Its worth another try or twnety for me though. Maybe I'll try to pull-it over there more often!

Dave also brings up a great point about the wind. During the last two winters we ahve experienced winds coming from the North that I never saw there when Gil, Geoff and Jim had when they were building it. There are days I too hit a three wood there, and sometimes even a light driver just to lay-up.

I can think of maybe one time I went into the hazard from the tee compared to the many times I've been in there on the approach, after a patented skull or chilly-dip.

(Do any of you guys hit those once in a while? )

Who knows, maybe we can play our shots from pieces of astroturf if we wanted to play it from there. (O.K. bad idea, but at least I'm still looking for ways to play the original hole.)

BTW, the sand that is currently on that fairway was what was removed from the swale at #6, and Jim Wagner had to find a place to dump it and that was the logical place (the fairway was ruined anyway.)

[sonofalawyer]

great list, tommy.  i couldn't agree more.  just when you think you've figured out a certain shot at rustic, you learn something new.  that's why i can't get enough of it.  

i can't count the number of times i've found myself in a spot, surveyed my options and then noted to myself, "well, now you know, don't ever hit it here, again."

 

[THuckaby2]

Dave, I also want to add that I have certain shots at Rustic Canyon that are the bain of my existence. (I enjoy the challenge though)

They are:

-The shot to the green on #1 to get it close to the hole, instead of faced with a putt over 15 feet or more.
-The approach to the green on #2, which I gamble on. If I don't make it over from my usual spot in the fairway, I'm in the bunker, where I somehow have this deft touch of putting it on the green as one-putting for par.
-As mentioned, the approach to #7.
-The tee shot on #10 has always semingly given me fits. Many here who have witnessed it will attest.
-The tee shot on #11, which I have nver played anywhere but the back tee because that is where the hole should be layed from for a guy like me; always wanting the sporting challenge.
-The approach to the green on #12; Just when I think I have it, I lose it on the next time out!
-The second shot on #13, which inevitably has me crying out, "New Jersey!" I have to play it from in there every time.
-The tee shot on #14, which has intimidated me, kicked me in the knutensacks, knived-me, laughed at me, taunted-me, etc.
-The 2nd shot in on #16 is for me is one of the funnest shots on the course, and after many times of not knowing how to play it, I think I have finally got it down. No matter if its my 2nd or 3rd shot!

Rustic Canyon is the type of golf course where when I enter the gates, my heart starts pumping more and more--I'm that excited to play it. I don't get that at many golf courses anymore--that over-anxious thrill. In fact, I can tell you that is my one big if not huge factor of knowing a golf course is going to be good is when I'm scared silly. You should have seen the look on my face at NGLA.

I hope I'm making my point.

Tommy - I know you addressed this to Dave, but I have to ask a question:  WHY do you FEAR each of these shots?  As I read that, and imagine the shots, the only one that strikes fear in my heart is the tee shot on 14.  But perhaps that's because the potential for PENALTY SHOTS causes me fear, but less tangible loss doesn't... In each of the other shots, oh yes, they are difficult, and you may not achieve your best score if you don't pull them off, but you're also not gonna make snowmen of the like...

I guess it's different standards.  Mine are low and I expect a lot of bogeys.  But I don't expect or want many doubles or worse... potential for those scare me.

Now EXCITE me, that's a different question.  Change the word "fear" to "excite" and I agree with every word you say.  So on each of these courses - Rustic, NGLA, Cypress - I was EXCITED, but I had no fear (well, except for 16 Cypress - on that I was shitting bricks).

See the difference?

Dammit this is something we NEED to discuss in person.  You freakin' WILL be there in a few weeks, right?  It has been way too long.

TH

[Andy_Lipschultz]

Tom: I;ll be out of town on the 27th, but I plan to bring my mountain bike to the course (or on the hills above it) on the 28th and take pictures and yell through a megaphone about journalism and ethics.

[THuckaby2]

Tom: I;ll be out of town on the 27th, but I plan to bring my mountain bike to the course (or on the hills above it) on the 28th and take pictures and yell through a megaphone about journalism and ethics.

 
Fantastic!  I shall be listening.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, You have never seen me golf--trust me, its that heart-pumping fear, but I like to attack it with reckless abandon. That's just me.

(What its about is this low-running Gyro-golf hook that has trouble getting over these hazards. Its about the knoweldge of what you don't excel at and want to conquer--Do you think David took on the Giant and said, "I'm going to kick his ass?" I don't, he reached deep inside and pulled out a performance, and performaces like that are what dictate the memories, and thats what I love.)

Sonofalawyer, you should join us if there is in fact room.

Who has pulled out anyway? It better not be Hendren or Benham.

[THuckaby2]

Tommy - yikes - re-reading this I see you did say EXCITEMENT!  Good lord what a bonehead I am.  Ok, I am in full agreement.

I do tend to get the same way, just a little.  Somewhere Goodale is laughing and coming up with a suitable shit-giving riposte...

So anyway, never mind...

Except for the last part - you better be there lest I hunt you down.  

[THuckaby2]

OK Tommy, this is all cool - we still have to talk about this in person though!  But that was very well-described.

And no, neither of the two Mikes is pulling out lest I hunt them down also.  And I have no idea who is - Dave did just post in that other thread that there is room for those who were on the waiting list.

Se ya soon!

[sonofalawyer]

tom

you bring up an excellent point here.  those "fear" shots you describe, those snowmenmakers are all about hazards and penalty strokes.  IMHO, rustic is a challenging course but not penal.

there's not a lot of penalty strokes at rustic, but there are so many chips, pitches, and approaches (hell, putts) where if you're not careful you will be taking a "played" penalty stroke.

take the approach to number 16.  170 yards downhill.  no bunkers really come into play, lots of room around the green.  you'd have to hit an abominable shot to incur a penalty shot here.  no matter what happens you're going to find the ball.

but the combination of the downhill lie and the severe drop off behind the green will make you sweat bullets.  if you hit the ball through that green -- so, so easy to do when the course is running fast -- the chip you have back up to the putting surface (especially if the pin is in the back) will make your hair fall out. if you get cute, it's very easy to chip the ball and have it end up right back at your feet.  a do-over that's as good as hitting in the drink.   you can still make par from behind 16 green, but you have play a fantastic shot to do so.

that's what i love about it.  you're never totally out of it.  it may require an absolutely unbelieveable, creative shot but you can still scramble for that par.

[DMoriarty]

Perfect!  Mr. Falawyer's and Andy simultaneously describe two contradicting thoughts on going far up the left side of the left fairway, and they are both correct.  That is the essence of RC.  

Like Mr. Falawyer, I prefer the left side to the back pin, but for yet a third reason.  The worse thing I can do with the back pin is to miss behind the big hump on the right, and somehow it doesnt come into play as much for me when I am aiming back left from the left side.  

Also, one can really get close to the green by going long left, which also helps get to the back pin.  
____________________  

Shivas, if I breathed like I golfed, I'd be long dead.  

I havent even begun to describe the different strategic considerations this hole presents, and wont bore you with them.  But I will tell you that all this go/no go talk is meaningless unless we know the pin location and what the golfer is trying to accomplish.
 

You laying up is a mistake.  All you're really saying is that you're a lob wedge head

How on earth could you say this without ever having seen the hole?    

Here, at least take a look at a few photos . . . then you can continue on telling us how to play a hole we've played and seen played hundreds of times.  

Aerial (tee is long green strip starting in the lower right of the photo):


View of green from end of right side of left fairway (the 7th green is down and to the left of the high, visible green, which is eight):


View of green from right fairway:


View from just in front of left side of green (basically a very steep bank, with the green sloping away on other side):


Unfortunately, it is impossible to understand why the strategy is as it is without seeing the green in person.  

[Dan Grossman]

Jeff -

It wouldn't surprise me if you did lay-up.  You may not see the benefit of going for the wash from the tee.  I have only attempted to clear the wash once, and I don't view it as a distance issue.

[rjsimper]

Re: going further left up the neck of the layup fairway...unless you are concerned about your ability to hit the ball in the air, I feel like that is every bit as dangerous a play as bailing out to the right but still flying the wash...it narrows down and when the conditions are playing correctly firm, a slight push with a 4 iron bounds into the wash anyway...

Even the shot from the mounds through the fairway isnt too bad given the fact that you can bounce it up there.  Basically, if you can carry the ball 210 and can hit it in the air, and you are torn between hitting over the wash right or playing down the neck to hit a SW in over the wash, the angle and view of the green dictate that the play is right...I dont see a reason to hit it up the neck unless you are capable of hitting it 210, are SIGNIFICANTLY more accurate with your SW or PW than you are with 8 or 9, and cant fly it far enough to carry any point in the wash...

I can carry the driver about 260ish and I'll hit D or 3W over the wash, extreme conditions excepted, every time.  

[Joe Perches]

7 in its original state is a very very good hole.  I hope it can be restored.

I used to lay up on that hole, never made a birdie that way, rarely made double.

I decided to go over once after seeing someone else do it, I proceeded to hit a nice for me wedge to a few feet.  I like birdies.  I now get a few more doubles on that hole though when I spray a driver, but I get a lot more birdies.

I average about the same either way, but I sure feel better with an open easy wedge than a 8 or 9 into a whereinhellisthepin green that slopes away with a bunker in front and behind it.

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