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Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« on: February 23, 2003, 05:42:46 PM »
Does anyone know what is going on with Inniscrone in Pennsylvania?  I have heard that the club is currently being sold and they are allowing public play.  Has anyone played in the last few months, how is the course looking these days?  It's a shame if the course goes to waste, it's a great layout on a very interesting piece of property.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

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Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2003, 08:41:34 PM »
I think it is probably a result of the chap. 7/11 condition nat'l fairways has found itself in.

don't know anything other than that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Zach (Guest)

Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2003, 01:00:04 PM »
Hi-

I am an occasional lurker here, and my property backs up onto that of Inniscrone.  I previously had playing priviledges there for a year (long story).  Last I heard, the bank was still shopping for a buyer.  Someone will get it for a steal I'm sure.
I was told that the club will operate as it did last year, offering yearly memberships for around $3800(plus carts, plus quarterly food$).  They also allowed public play last year for a few hours a day.

Obvioulsy, I would really like the place to survive.  What does GCA think about Inniscrone as a public course?  Most folks at the club think it is too difficult for the first timer/high handicapper to be a successful daily fee.  I would hate to see the course changed for that reason...

The course is in great shape, as always, although still covered by the 20" snow we got last week...

Anyone want to lend me 5 million?  Or maybe Inniscrone could be the first GCA membership-owned club if everyone chipped in...I would be happy to look after the place...

Zach
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2003, 01:19:05 PM »
5 Million?

No problem--I'll get back to you--I think I remember seeing that in the jacket I had on the other day.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

zmatzkin

Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2003, 01:34:02 PM »
You see?  If everyone here just pooled their pocket change...heh

Zach
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2003, 04:28:55 PM »
Zach,
Inniscrone is an excellent golf course that has gotten a bad rap by people that have never actually seen the golf course, but are willing to go off of what they have heard or people that do not understand one iota about intersting golf architecture and provocative features.

Granted that the course was put in some pretty precarious postions design wise, thanks to a owner that mandated some pretty unusual things. I think it deserves all the respect it was given in 2001 when it was rated in the Top 100 Modern of Golfweek's America's Best Courses. I will even go further to add, that I would like to challenge any Golfweek rater who rated it out of last year's list, on the architectural merits of the course alone.

The course does have an idosyncracy or two, (most notably #10- but that is about it) but the architecture is much better then many Moderns which reside in the top 25 of our list.

I would like to put out this challenge, Show me where Inniscrone fails so badly in the Golfweek critieria.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2003, 04:54:44 PM »
I understand that a group from within may be trying to buy it. At least that was a rumour when I played last summer.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2003, 07:06:09 PM »

Quote
Most folks at the club think it is too difficult for the first timer/high handicapper to be a successful daily fee.  I would hate to see the course changed for that reason...

I don't agree with this at all. I'm a relatively high handicapper (22ish) and I didn't have any big problems at Inniscrone at the GCA outing in summer '01. It was my most enjoyable golf experience to that point, although it was equalled the next day at Lehigh.

Interestingly, one of our biggest posters (volume, not size) played at both of these at the same time & expressed the feeling that Inniscrone was not a course he would want to play every day, due to the continuous challenge off the tee, whereas he felt Lehigh was a course he could definitely enjoy everyday. I shot 93 at Inniscrone & 103 at Lehigh, so there you have one high handicapper's limited experiment on the two. I found Inniscrone a little tougher off the tee, but Lehigh much tougher around the greens.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2003, 07:57:20 PM »
Tommy Naccarato,

Some of the many forced carries may have been responsible for the demotion.  It doesn't sit on the best piece of land, and environmental constraints may have been to onerous to overcome for the raters.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2003, 08:23:38 PM »
Pat, Sorry, I'm not buying that at all.

I'm a person of modest, and I mean really modest length. In fact, when I do hit in long, its usually a really fun running draw that can't complete a forced carry.

At Inniscrone, Other then #18, I never felt forced at all. In fact, I think its an exceptional firm and fast course that requires ground game. I will give you that the 18th may be a tad bit of a carry, but even in a tough wind, pretty beat from playing all week long, and after suffering heat prostration at Merion, I still almost made it! And as I said to Gil an hour and a half after the round, I think that paticular tee might be better served being not more then ten yards further up--if at all. Still I could have layed-up. The option was there.

Now I may not be able to hit it over the cross bunkers at #9, but the long hitting professional I played with out there barely could. #13, I had not a single problem, in fact I think its even got some options for even me, which leads to--the course is full of them, you don't have to force any carry.

And to let you know, the course isn't without criticism from me. I do feel that there are some teeing grounds that would benefit from slight adjustment. Maybe this could be because the owner was telling Gil that he needed 150 yards space between greens and tees, which he had learned from the Urban Land Institute Book by Rees Jones! (A FACT)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2003, 08:29:47 PM »
Pat, I didn't ant to seem confrontational, so let me apologize if I was a bit.

You see, i feel that thee RATERS are the problem. There is so much Great golf architecture going on at Inniscrone, I should realize that it isn't going to be without criticism because the course is different then most courses in the Philadephia area.Its a sort of throw-back whch they are not used to.

Imagine what they think of Rustic Canyon out here! this golfing Public that has an accumlative I.Q. of "3" on a good day.

They in FACT love it!:)

I don't know, maybe I'm the dummy! :o
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Roger Murdoch

Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2003, 07:11:51 AM »
Tommy,

I ( for the most part ) agree with your critique of the course. There is some wonderful, challenging and unique architecture. The one thing that stands out for me are the options and the ability ( need ) to think my way around the course. Which I put at the top of the list when I  personnally rate courses. Although the options aren't based on angles into the greens, rather distances. There are many " lateral hazards " that cause the player to think about the shot selection and how they will negotiate around the course. I found myself challenged with shot making decisions, which I believe is the sport. I do have to question the height and thichness of the grasses surrounding the bunkers. This I feel doesn't allow for the option in shot making around the hazards. It seemed like I was "hacking at the ball" just to get it out rather then having to THINK about the what and where of the shot. Although I played prior to some Furyk charity outing.

Have to ask what club would you use to layup on the 18th? I found the carry extremely easy and would have to disagree with the layup option unless your hitting a wedge.
Could you elaborate more on the 150 yd ???? rule you speak of, I really don't remember extreme distances between green and tees ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2003, 07:30:22 AM »
I see many green-to-tee walks less than 150 yards (courtesy of AOTD #14):

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB!

Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2003, 08:05:03 AM »
By the way, I'm curious if the problems with National Fairways is impacting any of the other courses they managed. I know
Coral Creek (Fazio course near Boca Grande, FL) is in trouble, and Sedona is on permanent hold, but what about Hudson National, or, more importantly, Forsgate? Does anybody know what's going on with these other courses/clubs?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SBusch (Guest)

Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2003, 08:15:22 AM »
I don't think Inniscrone's troubles have much to do with ratings or the quality of the golf course.  Most of the talk around town is very good about the course.  Every course has critics.  The real problems have to do with location, supply, demand, and positioning.  Build it and they will come isn't always true.

Regarding NF's other courses, they are no longer involved in Hudson National, they sold their interest in Forsgate, and I assume that the other two courses met the same fate as Inniscrone.  Others who lurk here know more than I on those two courses.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2003, 09:10:17 AM »
That's a really good aerial--right over the course, everything clear as could be etc...;

But if just reminded me again how valuable aerials and even really good aerial analysis can be but also it really reminded me how limited and limiting aerials can be for generaly architectural analysis too.

You can see things with aerials you might never think of on the ground even with real experience with a golf course but it should also always be remembered always the things you can never see with aerials--particularly the effects in everyway of topography and all it means to architecture and golf which can only be seen and felt on the ground.

It's great to have aerials but you sure do have to have both to even begin to make sense of things architectural in the overall with any golf course!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2003, 10:46:31 AM »
Roger, On the day I played it, I seemed to remember a wind hitting me in the face on #18, and the tee shot being pretty demanding, in fact the most demanding aspect of the hole.

I also remember staring at the cart path and saying to myself that the tee would be better postioned right there. But once again, I'm not a person of substantial length, and I actually hit two or three really good tee shots on that paticular hole (And about 10 shots from the fairway on #15! What a hole!)(I'm totally serious! I think Redanman and myself emptied our bags!:)) Each one came up short, and if I would have teed it up from the other side of the cart path. (We played the back tees, and I seem to remember the cart path split the back and middle tees, it would have made it over with ease.) But ultimately, i don't judge these courses on the merit of my game. I judge them from what I think are suitable distances for all. The day we played, we had Redanman and his pretty good length. Brad Nycum, former NF Director of Golf or some title like that, who was PHENOMINALLY long. and of course me. It was a pretty good scale to measure on and I don't think I hit a bad drive all day.

On adjustments, I speak of minor adjustments, very minor.

1-Blow up that very dangerous back tee on #10. (Owner's idea for that tee.) I suggested a tee on the other side of the clubhouse, or losing the really great green, and moving it further back, which might require obtaining more property. I could live with it the way it is. But even that would be ridiculous. It seems to be the only really forced hole because of the hazard
2-Adjust the middle, somewhat blind tee away from the tree on #11
3-Place #12 in a vacuum so that no one EVER touches that hole ever! It is a work of art, and phenominal golf architecture.
4-Extend the tee back on the 17th, enough to make it a 3-shot hole. It would be an excellent three shot hole. We spent almost twenty minutes on that green trying to make putts off of the slope.

But why am I EVEN suggesting changes to an really GOOD golf course?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2003, 08:56:34 PM »
Tommy Naccarato,

I forget if it was TEPaul or some other good golfer who told me of a qualifying event held at Inniscrone, where the players couldn't carry the tee shot into the fairway.  I played all the way back and recall it taking an effort.  Other tee shots from the back are very demanding, including # 4, # 16, # 17

Some are critical of the 10th hole, hitting their second off of a downhill sidehill lie, over an enviro area into that green.

And there are a number of carries required on the second shot, combined with the carries required on the tee shot, that may not have been greeted with enthusiasm by the raters.

Some apparently didn't like the downhill par 3 5th hole and the back walk to # 6 tee.

I think Gil inherited a very difficult piece of property and routing, and made the best of it, but that property, the routing and the forced carries are difficult obstacles for a rater to overlook.

I don't see it as a top 100.

Applebrook is another story, and, without the overpowering homes/condos, I think the course would jump much higher.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Roger Murdoch

Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2003, 06:41:07 AM »
Tommy,

Remembering back I can see your point on 18 with wind in your face or the tee markers improperly placed in accordance with the type of player. To many times we see that the course is setup wrong by the proshop or superintendents and doesn't match what the architects had in mind. This is a topic for another day. I agree that it is a good course with some interesting and fun architecture.

How about turning # 10 into a par 3 and # 11 into a medium length par 4  with the green in the same location ?
What about the long (150 yd ) distance from tee to green ?
Did you encounter any THICK grass around the bunkers?

Patrick,

Could you discuss more about the impact of the homes on the golf architecture of Applebrook ? Should the homes sway your opinion of the course architecture ? Same goes for the clubhouse ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2003, 06:48:13 AM »
Roger Murdoch,

Are you asking for my opinion of the golf course and its architecture, OR my opinion of the RATERS opinion of the golf course ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Roger Murdoch

Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2003, 07:02:01 AM »

"Applebrook is another story, and, without the overpowering homes/condos, I think the course would jump much higher."

Just wondering how ( you or the raters ) determine the outside influence on the course architecture? Do you feel the homes/condos have a negetive impact on the course, and if so should they be related to the architects work within the play of the course?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2003, 12:18:05 PM »
Roger, After re-reading all of Pat's posts, I realize that he is listing the reasons why he thinks the raters don't praise the course as highly as others. (more specifically, it looks like just me, fighting this one out, since some of them who also did rate it high haven't added any input here. Since it not just my, but ALL OF OUR accused "over-rating" of course, that was called into question, I'm quite surprized.)

All of the reasons Pat has listed are more then likely the cause. I do in fact remember that Pat really enjoyed Inniscrone when he played there. In fact, I think he was quite taken with the architecture, more specifically the bunkering.

I hope I'm getting this right Pat and not speaking out of turn.

The grass around the bunkers is GREAT stuff, and if they don't understand it, then how come it is understood so well at a course, say like Royal County Down?

Changing the 10th to a par 3? Brad Nycum, the former DOG for National Fairways thought that there were some changes needed for the course to sort of fix it. I totally disagreed with that thinking. Fix is not a good word, but, very slight minor changes that didn't involve an owner that knew little of the game could actually be a good thing. I don't think that there is a course out there that could say that it was perfect when it was finished. (other then Cypress Point or Friars Head!) Especially when GREAT natural features are being used, and the elements of tee or bunker placement become useful tools. Knowing Gil and Co. they strive to tie-in their work as much as possible to the nature of the entire ideal. (I hope this make sense.) It truely takes an artistic and a sceintific touch to do this. Most of the time things work, but their is going to be a little idiosyncracy that needs more, and I say this in bold-block capitals--REFINEMENT. For all of the GREAT architecture going on at Inniscrone, I'll take the idiosyncracies anytime! In fact, when I called up Redanman, back in PA., shortly before Rustic Canyon opened, I screamed to him on the phone--I have my very own Inniscrone! In fact it might be even better! Its mine, all mine!

I can't think of one feature at Inniscrone that looks artificial or at least un-natural, with the exception of the resevoirs near #2 and 18, and which they had no control over. Still, does it affect the architecture and playability of the course? NOT ONE BIT!

Pat brought up another point that bares discussion. the 16th hole.

At first, I found the 16th hole to play sort of clumsy. I didn't care for the postioning of the tee; As you probably know, they had to avert an old road, and foundation for a historic house down about 100 yards and down the hill. The bunker guarding the sub-terrained green, is magnificent, as was all of the masterful shaping or lack of shaping of the side-hill of the alternate route. I must admit that I was pretty lame for not really seeing the integrity of the hole at first. But after talking to Geoff Shackleford, after he had returned it all sort of opened up for me. It was a perfect example of using the methodology of Quarry Hole at Merion, only suited in a very difficult area where both eco and historical preservation was needed. The hole wasn't the typical, put somethig simple in there and get the player out of there as quick as possible and make it look pretty like most architects would have opted. The hole simply requires some pretty bold and convincing play, but you have choices (options) aplenty.

I can say with all earnest that other then my love for the phenominal 12th, the 16th may be the one hole that makes me want to return to Inniscrone the most. Here is a modern golf hole that inspires me. A perfect example of  golf architecture and the natural features becoming so memorable, the Wayfarer can hardly wait to return.

This is why I rate Inniscrone so highly.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2003, 12:59:41 PM »
OK Tommy- I'll help out a bit.

To quote a good friend- Inniscrone has more really great architecture then a good many of the golf courses that made the GW top 100 modern list.  There are quite frankly some really great holes out there including one of the best opening holes around. I think Inniscrone has received a bum rap in good part from a few people whose opinion I really think extremely little of (and that's being kind).

Negatives include a difficult walk due to the property and some awkward tee boxes due to the owner/developer and constraints from environmental issues.  The 10th is simply a poor hole.  The tee shot on #18 is tough into the wind especially but it could use a few trees removed from the barranca to avoid the "field goal effect" adding to the forced carry. Inniscrone is a difficult golf course but one that requires thought and strategy to play well.

It really is tucked away in a location that is not at all convenient and I think that is a good part of the problems the course is facing with membership etc.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2003, 01:51:19 PM »
Just what the Doctor ordered--Geoff Childs! Thanks! You couldn't have said it better. Now, if I could only get a certain  specific resident from Bloomfield, Conn. to come down for a look!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Roger Murdoch

Re: What is going on with Inniscrone in PA?
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2003, 02:58:29 PM »
Tommy,

Well said! I have to agree that Inniscrone has some excellent golf holes. Here are my top 5. Which by the way could stand up on any of the top whatevers in the country.

1. #12
2. #15
3. # 6 ( I believe this is the par 4 after the short par 3)
4. # 1
5. #16

The bunker grass is still has to much THICKNESS. Unlike Royal County Down which is tall and whispy, the fescue ( ? ) was to thick and laying twisted. To much in my book, made it impossible to play from. It really detracted from the architecture in the ground and its relationship to the hazard. They need to thin it out some or cut it back to minimize the tangling effect. Quite different from the fescues you would see at RCD, or other courses in Ireland or Scotland.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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