[Ran Morrissett]

Seth Raynor liked to incorporate famous/classic design principles into many of his holes. Some like the Cape and the Double Plateau came from studying Macdonald's work.

How successful was he vs. the original holes that inspired him?

Let's say that the merit of the original hole equals a par. How many times did Raynor's version beat it (birdie) or tie it (par)? Obviously, since he was borrowing the principles from a great hole to begin with, the chance for plenty of bogeys would be high(i.e. if he didn't build a great hole, he gets a bogey).

My take on his par or better score card would go as follows:

Redan holes
1. Chicago GC (par)
2. Piping Rock (par)
3. North Berwick
4. Westhampton (par)
5. Yeamans Hall (par)
6. CC of Charleston (a fascinating hole but a bogey nonetheless)

That is to say, I don't reckon Raynor ever built a clearly better Redan than the original but he did build several that play as well.

Short
1. Lookout Mountain (birdie)
2. MPCC Dunes (birdie)
3. Camargo (birdie)
4. Westhampton (birdie)
5. St. Louis (birdie)
6. Shoreacres (birdie)
7. Chicago GC (birdie)
8. Yale (par)
9. Royal West Norfolk
10. Yeamans (par)

Biarritz (I have never seen a good picture of the original - all I could tell was that it was spectacular)

1. Yale (eagle)
2. Fishers (par)
3. France
4. The Creek (par)
5. Piping Rock (par)
6. Lookout Mountain (par)
7. Camargo (par)

Eden
1. St. Andrews
2. Fishers (par with a chip-in)
3. Camargo (a worthy bogey)
4. St. Louis (the only other worthy bogey - every other version that I've seen is a double bogey)

St. Andrews' Eden is miles and miles superior to Raynor's work, some of which is to expected given the Eden's superb location at St. Andrews.

Alps
1. Fishers with its combo Punchbowl green - (birdie)
2. Prestwick
3. Lookout Mountain (par)
4. Piping Rock (par)
5. The Creek (par)
5. Yale - properly restored, might be a chip-in par

Road Hole
1. St. Andrews - like the hole itself, a bogey is still a good score.
2. Shoreacres (bogey)
3. Yale (bogey)
4. Piping Rock (bogey)
5. Chicago (bogey)

Cape
1. NGLA
2. St. Louis (bogey but the green surrounded back and right by a creek makes it a very noteworthy Cape green)
3. Fishers (bogey)
4. Lookout Mountain (bogey, but a clever 3 shotter nonetheless)

Punchbowl
1. The Creek (eagle - assuming 6 at The Creek is termed punchbowl)
2. Chicago (eagle)
3. Westhampton (par)
4. the original UK punchbowl green complexes
5. Yeamans Hall (par)

The Knoll
1. Piping Rock (birdie)
2. Yeamans Hall (birdie)
3. Scotscraig (haven't seen, so I'm guessing)
4. Yale (maybe a chip-in par?)

Double Plateau
1. Chicago GC (eagle)
2. Lookout Mountain (birdie)
3. St. Louis (birdie)
4. Yeamans Hall (birdie, once its surrounds are restored)
5. Yale (properly restored, could be a birdie)
6. 11 at NGLA, which I am assuming is what inspired Raynor

Long
1. St. Andrews - all of Raynor's versions would be double bogeys, best case.

I am sure I've forgotten a ton but overall, I would say the above acorecard is very good without being great. With some wilder greens (such as his downhill Redan holes at Lookout and Yale need more right to left pitch to counteract the downhill aspect of the shot and his Road hole greens are generally too deep to achieve the desired affect and his Eden greens rarely had enough back to front pitch), some of the holes would be raised a grade or two.

Cheers,

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ran,

What about Yale's eden and NGLA's punchbowl ?

[Ran Morrissett]

Pat,

Save for where the holes were copied from NGLA, I left all NGLA holes (as well as Mid Ocean's) as I give Macdonald the credit for those two designs and this post is meant to be Raynor's scorecard.

Othwerwise, Macdonald's Alps hole would be an eagle, as would his Redan, Leven and Bottle holes.

In regards to 15 at Yale, I think it is a fine hole, better than I remembered, but with Hill bunker obscured by trees, etc. it just isn't near the class as 11 at St. Andrews.

As part of this thread, perhaps it would be fun to slot in where modern take-offs (like Hanse's Redan at Inniscone or Doak's Road Hole at Lost Dunes) would score?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Not to stray from the topic, but I'd like to know if Raynor ever visited Great Britain to see the original holes he was copying?

[I suspect George Bahto might know the answer.]

[Gib_Papazian]

Jeff,

The answer is that Raynor never ventured to the U.K. to see the originals.  He depended wholly on Macdonald's descriptions.

I'll have to ask George, but I do not believe there is evidence that Charles Banks ever did either.  

[Mark_Huxford]

What can anybody tell me about the Shoreacres renovations?

They took a massive jump in the world top 100 from 82 to 63 I believe. As a Seth Raynor course, what did they do that was so right??

[Mark_Huxford]

Sorry, restoration is probably the word I should have used.

[Ran Morrissett]

Mark,

Shoreacres jump can be attributed to the EXCELLENT work of their Green Keeper Tim Davis. The presentation of SA is as pure as any of Raynor's designs.

One example of his work is that he turned their Biarritz hole into the full length kind, with its green now measuring 83 yards from front to back - not many Green Keepers set themselves up for that kind of work!

On a side note, at 6,300 yards, it sure is wonderful to see a course like Shoreacres leap frog over 7,000 yard snoozers like Colonial, etc.

[Scott W.]

Ran,

The sixteenth Eden hole at Lookout has more back to front movement than a Britney Spears video.  Is there another aspect that makes this hole unworthy of at least a bogey?

[SPDB]

Ran-
I wasn't aware of any alps hole at The Creek? To which hole are you referring?

sean

[Ran Morrissett]

Scott,

You're right - Lookout's 16th replicates the fear of going past hole high like no other Eden hole in the U.S. However, a true Eden is supposed to have a skyline green, and Lookout did at one point, but alas, no more. Only Fishers enjoys a skyline/horizon green but in turn, it lacks Lookout's slope.

Sean,

I was referring to the 9th hole -  wouldn't you consider that an Alps? I haven't been there is 7 years but I recall the approach over the hump/ridge as being one of my favorite shots on the course.

[Ray_Cross]

Ran...you can add these two Biarritz greens to the list of Raynor's par or better scores , in my opinion;
# 17 at Fox Chapel GC in Pittsburgh, a 231 downhill par three with about 10 yds before the dip and 25+ yds after.
# 15 at the Greenbrier course at The Greenbrier Resort in White Sulphur Springs, WV, a 438 yd par 4 with the green apx 30 yds deep and at a slight angle to the left from the fairway.
Other hole names on that course are Sahara,Punchbowl,Eden,Cape and Redan. Altho Nicklaus did some work on the Greenbrier course prior to the 1979 Ryder Cup, it is my understanding that was mostly tee boxes and some bunkers.
Reghards,

[SPDB]

Ran -
As great a hole as it is, i don't think that 9 at The Creek could qualify as an alps. We can call it a half-alp (or foothill). I really believe that there needs to be some blind element to the approach shot, which is absent on Creek 9. However, it does have the cross bunker in front which strictly speaking is an element of Alps hole (which I might add, Piping is missing).
But with the putting surface clearly visible on the approach, I don't think it can qualify.

2 other things:
1. I noticed the absence of the Alps 7th hole at Camargo. I think that particular version is unique in that an alps hole is created on a flat piece of property. All of the other Alps I am familiar with takes advanatage of a certain amount of elev. change in implementing the blindnes of the shot.

2. Also, i think that the 10th hole at the Creek is a pretty good cape. Admittedly, it is a fairly easy cape strategy to negotiate since it is pretty short (308 yds). However, there are so many places to go wrong on this hole. Not only do you have to figure out how much you want to bite off on the right side, but after making that decision, you need to make a corresponding calculation to make sure that your ball does not run through the fairway and into the hazard adjoining the hole with the beach. With a fairly narrow fairway, this is no easy trick. Choosing to drive the green gives rise to a whole host of other problems, but may be the most rewarding strategy, in terms of corresponding risk.

[George_Bahto]

Jeff: as Gib stated, Raynor had not visited the British Isles nor had Charlie Banks - both relied on what they learned from CB and used NGLA as their basis.

[Oat]

For 20 years, I've believed the 6th at The Creek to be the single "best" golf hole I've ever played.  I believe it's a (backwards)Redan - not a punchbowl.  Is that not true?

[George_Bahto]

the 6th at Creek is one of the best holes Raynor ever built - it is sort of a combination of a reveres Redan approach to a two-level punchbowl green set off on the 45-degree angle of a good Redan.

For those who have never seen it, it is called Soundview, played from a high tee, from where you have an incredible view of Long Island Sound and the rest of the links portion of the Creek course spread before you.

It's a long par-4 to one of the finest green complexes imaginable - Tom Doak company did a wonderful job on this course a few years ago. Before the Doak & Co restoration the second (lower) level of the 6th green wasn't even used.

There are many great holes on Long Island - this ranks with the best of them.

Oat: thanks for bringing the hole up!!

[Mark_Huxford]

George did Raynor build many Redan holes off an elevated tee, say 30 feet or higher? Or did he typically use such situations to employ the Short.

Would the slopes of the Redan green still work as intended for shots off the higher trajectory? Was anything done differently in these situations where the tee was higher?

Mark,

[SPDB]

George -
Couldn't agree with you more, i think Creek 6 is one of the finest. It is sort of a combo punchbowl/redan, in that there are subtle slopes that come off the bunker guarding it's front, combined with the more severe slope from back to front.

The strategy however is all redan. The ideal shot comes low and left to right to catch the slope that carries the ball from the front left opening (the only view of the green) to a mid to right center pin placement.

just fantastic. does anyone have any photos? this hole really needs to be seen.

[Ran Morrissett]

Mark,

The 13th at Yale and 13th at Lookout have a fair amount of fall in them, but the Redan 11th at Silva's Black Creek has the most of any Redan I've ever seen (see its photo in the course profile) - maybe 70 feet?

Certainly such greens must have extra pitch to get the ball to properly release. Alas, the 13th at Yale does not and the strikingly beautiful hole is further hampered by its soft playing conditions.

SPBD,

I am sure your right about 9 at The Creek but let me ask you - is the ridge higher on the left side? I seem to recall a blind shot from a yard or two into the left rough? But it's been a long time since I was there  

And yes, great call on the 10th at The Creek - accuracy is at a mighty premium as you say!

My brother has some great photos from The Creek and shame on him for not making the time to do a course profile on it.

On a side note, should we give extra points to Raynor for having the sense of humor in designating the 5th at Yeamans an Alps hole?  

Wonder why Raynor's Long holes are a relatively sad lot?

Cheers,

[SPDB]

Ran -
You could be right about the left side, but I would think that would mean you hit a monstrous tee shot - and remember the entire left side is hemmed in along the same continuous line by the access road to the beach club.
However, i would think that an alps hole would have blind characteristics regardless of the angle of attack (an interesting side debate - i imagine).

Also, about your Long hole comment. I seem to remember the 9th at Camargo being a Long, and thinking it was spectacular. The strategy off the tee is tremendous. The bunker that sits at the right side of the fairway and at the apex of the ridge presents so many choices. In order to take advantage of the downslope and give yourself a shorter shot (50yds) into the green, this bunker must be negotiated, which is no easy task. Faint of heart lay up to the top of the hill for a longer but more level lied shot, and also run the risk of shooting the ball over the ridge and into the rough.

The green complex however, is somewhat of a disappointment.

[SPDB]

Ran -
Sorry to keep discussing the Creek, but I think that 15 can fit into the Double Plateau category very nicely. The green is menacing, particularly with a far left pin placement.

Coincidentally, it would also make a nice addition to a hogs back category, if there was one in the first place.

[CGCS]

Mark:

Certainly Tim Davis deserves some credit for Shore Acres moving up.  Tom Doak has done the work with Tim to make changes.  He should get some credit as well.

The biggest changes on the golf course have been Tim's crew rebuilding bunkers and expanding greens.  They also did some fairway contour changes.

Most of the changes have been very subtle, nothing striking asisde from the new green side bunker on #17.  All in all the subtle changes have been the best.

CGCS

[Pete Buczkowski]

George - <BR>Couldn't agree with you more, i think Creek 6 is one of the finest. It is sort of a combo punchbowl/redan, in that there are subtle slopes that come off the bunker guarding it's front, combined with the more severe slope from back to front. <P>The strategy however is all redan. The ideal shot comes low and left to right to catch the slope that carries the ball from the front left opening (the only view of the green) to a mid to right center pin placement. <P>just fantastic. does anyone have any photos? this hole really needs to be seen.

Thanks for resurrecting this thread.  #6 at the Creek is a great hole - perhaps my favorite hole of new ones played for the first time this year.  Its hard to make out the features of the green, but if you look carefully you can tell that the front and back of the green is slightly higher than the surface (note the bottom of the flag is hidden).  Plus you have the rest of the course in front of you - a great prelude to the rest of the round.

[Jason Blasberg]

the 6th at Creek is one of the best holes Raynor ever built - it is sort of a combination of a reveres Redan approach to a two-level punchbowl green set off on the 45-degree angle of a good Redan.

The 6th is my favorite green complex at the Creek and I can say it's the only green that actually compelled me in the first time playing it to invent a short game shot . . .  I hit my approach thin and ran it through the green onto the back middle left bank behind and the pin was in the middle left portion of the green.  The bank behind was so steep (long rough kept the ball on it) that for me to play the shot facing the hole would bring the club in way too shallow and I was sure to blade it so I turned my back to the hole, stood in front of the ball and chopped down on the ball and actually hit it clean to about 5 feet, just barely getting it on the green and it rolled all the way down.  Since then I've tried to repeat the shot on less severe greenside mounding with varying degrees of success but that green complex is something special.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

For the Double Plateau portion of the scorecard, I think the Creek's 15th and North Shore's 14th are slam dunk birdies!

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