[Jeremy Glenn,]

....and any inclusion of anything French just makes me puke...

slapper,

Could you please clarify what you mean by that?  Just so myself (and everyone else) knows exactly what you mean.

[Michael Dugger]

Jeremy,  might you have some french blood running through those veins?

I think Slapper was being funny.

You know, Frenchies don't have the best image in America.
They are rude to us when we visit their country.  They all smoke.  They don't take many showers and therefore smell.  

Oui oui, I think he's just trying to make a little joke.

Just a guess

[perry maxwell]

found that property in 1935-36, built the first 9 and routed the rest in '37. please keep me away from the GW modern list.

[RJ_Daley]

Daniel, If you have played Friars Head already, and those on the list plus many more of the high profile courses that you exclude from your list, you obviously have the depth of experience to make such a strong statement.  I might agree that TOC Kiawah belongs on such a list rather than Whistling Straits, or at least should be placed higher.  But, I am curious what you see in Black Diamond that puts it in the company of ground breaking or significant architectural concepts that it can be in such exclusive company?

As an observation, I can't believe how much bad photography Whistling Straits has been subjected to over the years since it has opened.  That PGA site and the photos presented stinks and does no justice to the nature of the golf shots encountered.  I would not go so far as to say the fairways are silly.  They are highly manufactured, but I think they are graded and shaped to offer a fair test of strategy and shot patterns, and due to the nature of how manufactured the course is, it merits consideration for ground breaking (pun tolerated   ) concepts.

Welcome to the site, Daniel.  I hope you will offer more of your thoughts on various topics as you express them well.  

[henrye]

Daniel.  You have clearly played a number of well known courses and have reasons for your inclusions and exclusions.  Would it be possible to get a short blurb on why you think each course in your selection is great and why some of the other notable exclusions were left-off.  If you've excluded some because you haven't played them, then that's legitimate, because it's your list.

[Frank Morris]

You guys forgot about a hidden gem in central oregon called

ASPEN LAKES

I have played all over, and this course does not have a bad hole not one, and the flow is fantastic.
445345434 543443445 Now that is a routing!

This should be fun the responses I get from this one but I will defend my statement like a gentleman

Robert Overdorf (hey guys it is easy to use our name right golfweekrater)

I know your dad designed the course, but you're kidding, right?  Aspen Lakes is an enjoyable track if you happen to be on vacation in Central Oregon, but calling it one of the great courses built since 1945 is laughable.

[danielfaleman]

Prairie Dunes: 1937 by Perry Maxwell (modified somewhat by Press Maxwell in 1957), great course; obviously impacted Crenshaw & Coore.



Black Diamond was a watershead design for a Tom Fazio course (built in 1988.)  It was a land reclamation project (quarry) as well as a part of a new way of thinking about a course supporting real estate/golf community that surrounds it.  Black Diamond was the first course by Fazio that shows real inspiration about the land and its purpose, something lacking in all of his previous courses; Tom saw the light, and this design has influenced his subsequent projects, as well as other designers. Plus, Black and the other courses there are financially successful - something that he and the project builders were not sure of in the beginning.

Friar's Head is a Hell of a course, the natural extention of Sand Hills' design, intent, and its location: building a course out in the middle of no-where simply because the land begged a golf course to be built. There are other threads on this site that deal with whether FH will be influential to others. Also, as I said previously, it's surrounded by Shinnecock, National Golf Links, and Maidstone. Frankly, as a golf course, Pacific Dunes is a harder test, and more natural about it.

I have yet to play Kingsbarns, although I am familar with it. The fact that is was built at all, given land use requirements, is amazing. It took ten years just to get the permit to build Loch Lomond (which was the inspiration for Kingsbarns.)

[buckeye_bob]

Dan, you're diminishing Fazio's creativity w/o the seaside mention of '81 Wild Dunes, an additional landmark !I  am a happy member at (2) of his courses.

[danielfaleman]

Wild Dunes is a beauty, I've played there, and I would be a proud member. Tom Fazio is a great designer, obviously, and I think that Black Diamond changed his professional life: Shadow Creek (90),  World Woods (93), Karsten Creek (94), Estancia (95), Galloway National (95),  Forest Creek (96) and Flint Hills National (98) all have Black Diamond in mind, and heart.


Cabo de Sol is Nicklaus' best course, and the best desert course in the world. All of Jack's courses have a sameness to them, or at least, have the feel of the same hand. At Cabo del Sol he had a perfect piece of ground, hard against the sea. Jack called 16, 17, and 18 there as the  best finishing holes as a group that he has worked on (new design.) This course will influence many.

TPC at Sawgrass. Kind of obvious. Island hole. Best of the swamp-land courses. One of the first of the stadium courses built to handle the Pro game and pro crowds. A very hard course that had the Pros whining for several years that it was too unfair (read: to hard). PGA West is a copy.

[Harrison Wethered]

danielfaleman

I was kind of going along not really agreeing with most of your comments about Friar’s Head, which was ok because its obviously ok to have differences of opinions, but when you said that Friar’s Head was basically in the middle of nowhere and that Pacific Dunes was a harder test, it made me wonder whether you had actually been there and played it or if maybe the wind was calm at Friar’s Head and blowing hard at PD when you played them.  Could you possibly tell me when you played them both and do you recall who you played Friar’s Head with?

[danielfaleman]

Friar's Head is not in the middle of no-where, Sand Hills is.  Sand Hills influenced others to build where one would normally avoid, the land demanded it. The land at Friar's Head screamed golf course too, echoing Sand Hills.

I've played Friar's Head twice. I've played six rounds at Pacific Dunes, all Oct. 2002. Different courses for different horses, I just found Pacific harder.

[Tim Weiman]

Buckeye Bob:

I'm quite familiar with Wild Dunes having owned property there for about ten years and having played the course many times.

Wild Dunes was very important in the career of Tom Fazio, but suggesting it is one of the very best courses built since 1945 goes too far.

If Wild Dunes has any distinction, it may be the course most spoiled by real estate development. When it first opened, it truly was "wild" and a joy to play. But, gradually John Ghant and the boys sold all kinds of property and really transformed the whole feeling of the place. I understand the financial aspect, but lament the passing of what once was so cool.

Hugo didn't help, of course, but really the real estate development just went too far. Last I was there (circa 1986), a place like Long Cove seemed to do a better job minimizing the impact of real estate development on the course.

[Doug Wright]

danielfaleman,

I was confused by your reference to "Los Cabos" and now see you're referring to Nicklaus's Cabo del Sol. The holes along and going to the ocean are indeed memorable, but there are several average holes there too. Certainly a fine layout and worthy of consideration but "best desert course in the world?"  I'd need to think about that (some might dispute whether it's the best course in Cabo), but to each his own...


Is PGA West really a "copy" of TPC Sawgrass? I know there's a 5-3-4 finish, with 16s that are "risk reward" (different penalties though), both 17s have island greens and 18s are long par 4s around a lake, but what about the rest of the courses?  I haven't played the latter and just played PGA West for the first time Monday, so I'm asking as a point of information.

PS Welcome to GCA.

[Harrison Wethered]

daniel
not questioning your difference of opinion, just trying to understand your frame of reference, particularly regarding the wind.  can you recall the dates that you played your 2 rounds at FH and your 6 at PD?

[RobertO4653]

Frank

What we as golfers and objective persons need to determine is what constitutes a great golf course. Now that I have said that I have had the pleasure to be on and around some very good golf courses both in play and work. So in response to your query about my seriousness, YES I do believe Aspen is one  of the GREAT COURSES BUILT SINCE 1945. Forget about my Dad for a second and that we are even related, because there are things with Dad's designs that bother me sometimes, forget about the architect, lets look at the course as its own entity. This course starts with a reasonable length hole that affords the golfer a chance to warm up, from there it becomes a gem both nines have amen corners both nines have long par 4's and short par 4's the risk reward element is constant the course is fair yet try to score my best is 73 from the tips.  

I like all of the other choices out there and just wanted people to realize that a course doesn't need the hype to be a great track. A lot of us golfers get caught up on the hype and what the magazines print (remember strictly opinions), so we want to go and play that course for that reason. As soon as we  get there we are caught up in the fact that we are on a course everyone has written about, we become golfers caught up in the moment and the fact we are playing a Bandon Dunes or a Whistling Straits or a Cabo del Sol. How many of us are really qualified to review a routing, or the strategy, keep in mind the architect is human and as such is prone to mistakes. The builders are human and prone to mistakes. I am human and prone to mistakes, but I have an opinion, like we all do.

Most of these sites we are talking about I would have to say the site made the architect, not the architect making the site, meaning that it was his job to screw up. Now with that being said, are there bad holes on some of these golf courses? If so why were they built? I do not feel that Aspen Lakes has a bad hole on it, my opinion only.

Frank and the discussion group, I need to tell you my passion for the game and the enjoyment I get out of a round of golf on any course whether it be a cow pasture or a exclusive club. To me I get to walk with the greats and hit my shots, I get to try and understand the strategy and play to the design against mother nature. It is peaceful and relaxing for me, plus I love the industry I work in and what my job entails.

In closing I say this, disscussing the best courses is like politics and religion it is a never ending debate with no right answer Yes Aspen is a must play.

Robert Overdorf
Golf Mapping
425.879.8215 cell

robert@golfmapping.com (e-mail)
phone@golfmapping.com (text)    

[danielfaleman]

Doug,

You kinda' answered your own question. Even the name PGA West denotes that there is an East (Sawgrass); talking intent here, Beaman wanted something similar and as tough as Sawgrass out in Cal.

Yes, Cabo del Sol (I'll edit above.) I like Pamilla too. But for Jack to build such a course as Cabo del Sol, well, I didn't think that it was in him.



Harrison Wethered,

Played both courses last fall, moderate winds at both.

[Michael Dugger]

IMHO, Aspen Lakes is a nice course, nice for Oregon, nice for the Bend/Redmond area.

Yes, I've played it
yes, I think I know what good is.

It's not one of the best since 1945.  Any way, any how.  However you want to put it, any which way but loose.  

It might not be one of the ten best in the state

Geez, Robert, you are making it awfully hard not to believe that you think it's so good because of the relation, not the merits.

It's a lot like me saying we have this high school kid here in Portland that is the best high school basketball player in the country.  Well, he might be damn good, but he ain't Lebron.

[danielfaleman]

Ben Dewar,

My subjective view is that to be a great course, a course has to be a great course AND make a statement concerning the golf experience, and/or by playing it, take the golfer somewhere that doesn't exist anywhere else. (Nice run-on sentence, no?)

I played Cabo del Sol and Muirfield Village within eight months of each other and realized that they are somewhat the same except that the former is in a resort on the ocean and the latter is in Ohio.

[Steve Lapper]

slapper,

Could you please clarify what you mean by that?  Just so myself (and everyone else) knows exactly what you mean.

Jeremy,

Normally i'd cop to being funny...it's a much better M.O., but in this case my French avulsion genuine and sincere. I love their culture and respect their right to exist as a nation, however their casual ignorance of history, their present arrogance with current events and their whoring mentality just annoys me something fierce...
 That said, Sans the risk of plaigerism, most of my potitical bent sides near 100% with certainly one of the World's best foreign(Middle East) affairs writer..another Golf Nut/Freak and friend...Thom Freidman... If you want I will post his last Sunday NYT column for all...one of the best of the last 8 mos.!!

 DF,

   Push back from that table of Surf meets Turf and look harder at your list... you might see some interesting other and better new deals!

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Daniel,
The first part helps me understand the list, however I am confused about two things.

To the point that the experience is unique and "doesn't exist anywhere else", how do both Bandon and Pacific make the list. Do you feel both are independent enough to warrant selection.

I do not understand your comparison of Muirfield Village and CdS. Does Cabo win due to the location, despite presenting similar characteristics? How much would you say setting influences your overall choices? You have certainly listed some of the most dramatic properties used since 1945.

[RobertO4653]

mdugger

Isn't this great how our opinions can cause such an uproar, I watch all of you guys post and read and learn, some of the posts that I like to respond too. Maybe when I come into Portland as I need to work on Royal Oaks, Stone Creek, and meet some of my other clients we can play, and I will buy you lunch. Just promise me we won't play a Overdorf course Oh he hasn't done any in Portland hahahahahah  

Give me a call

[Doug Wright]

daniel,

I'm not sure I answered my own question re PGA West. At least I'm still curious.  Sorry I don't know TPC Sawgrass very well except the last few holes from TV. Did Pete Dye merely mail the TPC Sawgrass plans and a few shapers out to PGA West and let them build the course? Are the front 9s and holes 10-15 identical or virtually so?

If in fact they are virtual copies it's weird one (TPC Stadium) is #13 in Golfweek's recent poll and the other (PGA West Stadium) is #87.

All The Best,

[danielfaleman]

Ben Dewar,

You'll notice in my origional post I said, "12" great courses but listed thirteen - I considered Pacific and Bandon in the same thought, didn't want to leave either out.

Yes, location can mean a lot. Royal Dornoch is on the North Sea, can't be anywhere else, plays like it too. I consider Cabo an improvement on Muirfield, place does have much to do with it. But, I picked Cabo del Sol because I feel that it is the BEST desert course AND it's along the ocean, which governs its play.

Doug,

Dean Beaman, then Commisioner of the PGA Tour, said, "Build another one out West." The courses are obviously not the same; just saying that Sawgrass was first, is worldclass, and has had its basics copied elsewhere. PGA West is still condidered one of the toughest though; slope/rating,  151/75.9.

[Jeff Goldman]

Doug,

I made that point in an earlier post, noting that Tom Doak takes points away from PGA West for lack of originality and says that they are basically the same course in "The Confidential Guide."  I've never played TPC, but 16 at PGA West seemed quite similar to 16 at the river course to me, with the river substituted for the san andreas bunker, except that its much better in Kohler, fits the land terrifically in Kohler, and there's that tree used to great effect.  

Jeff Goldman

[Doug Wright]

Thanks for the info. I've not been a big Pete Dye fan heretofore but I loved PGA West. Maybe I'm morphing into my friend Matt "Shot Values" Ward. "The badder the better"--yikes!  

All The Best,

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