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T_MacWood

Does talent skip a generation?
« on: March 12, 2003, 04:42:40 AM »
There have been a number of father and son combos in golf architecture: The Billy Bells, Perry and Press Maxwell, Willie Park Sr. & Jr., the Hawtrees, etc. It has been said talent and/or intelligence run every other generation, has this been true in the golf design world? (the reason I don't know the answer to the question is likely due to the fact my father was a brilliant man of science and my kids appear to be very bright)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »
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John_McMillan

Re: Does talent skip a generation?
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2003, 07:06:41 AM »
I think the interesting question is why there are so many father/son combinations in golf course architecture (Jones, Dyes, Fazio and his uncle).  To me, there are two reasons -

(i)  name recognition is a big selling point, and sons inherit their father's name

(ii)  the profession is in large part a "learning by doing" one, and sons get easier access to apprenticeships at the starts of their careers.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does talent skip a generation?
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2003, 07:36:46 AM »
At least for the Jones's, RTJ Jr. and Rees both have a ton of talent.

Bruce Matthews is every bit as talented as any in his older generation (And probably more so) as well.

The Dye's on the other hand....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does talent skip a generation?
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2003, 07:42:15 AM »
No.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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GeoffreyC

Re: Does talent skip a generation?
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2003, 08:39:42 AM »
Tom

The genetics of intellegence, IQ and and related subjects is much more of a politically charged issue then other talents such as music or athletic ability. In my opinion, it's unrealistic to think that reaching a highly successful position related to some talents are genetic while others are not. So I think its pretty much a given that genetics really works and our children can be expected to acquire certain of our traits be they good (long life, etc.) or bad (heart disease, suceptibility to certain cancers, etc).

Skipping a generation for traits is less well understood but there are certainly presidents for this in standard well understood genetic models as well as newly discovered genetic properties such as imprinting of genes where a trait is expressed only after passing through either the male or female germline. Re-establishment of the trait in a silent carrier would then require offspring of the proper sex. Only a minority of all genes are imprinted and we don't know all of them by a long shot. This whole subject very complex and it is more then likely that some traits are directly inhereted while others skip a generation and are even related to whether you have daughters or sons.

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does talent skip a generation?
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2003, 09:06:22 AM »

Quote
Tom

The genetics of intellegence, IQ and and related subjects is much more of a politically charged issue...

Skipping a generation for traits is less well understood but there are certainly presidents for this ....

Hmm, is this a polictical statement and/or freudian slip? ;)

I am not sure we have seen any third generation architects yet to test this theory, have we?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

GeoffreyC

Re: Does talent skip a generation?
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2003, 09:18:46 AM »
Good one Jeff.  My grandparents had very poor vocabularies and their spelling was worse  ::) .  I'm not a great fan of precedent Bush or his father.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Does talent skip a generation?
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2003, 10:16:10 AM »
What a highly intellectual conversation--Maybe I better get my Dad to post on this!:)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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T_MacWood

Re: Does talent skip a generation?
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2003, 10:38:40 AM »
Martin Hawtree is third generation...I don't know too much about him.

If you consider golf architecture an art form or a craft, perhaps IQ is not an essential ingredient - no offense to those golf architects out in cyberspace. I assume there have been very talented artists, musicians, actors, etc who were as dumb as a box of rocks. And fininancial success and artisitc success are not necessarily related - history has documented artists whose work was only popular after their death (a few golf architects too).

Are there certain aptitudes that are common among the most admired golf architects and the abscence of one (or more) of these characteristics is what seperates the great from the good or average? I look at RTJ and his sons. Like him or not, Trent Jones was a very talented golf architect. Before his high production machine was unleashed his designs were both creative and stylish, and he obviously was a gifted promoter and marketer. RTJ-Jr. seems to have inherited his father's artistic and creative talents (although for some reason his designs are often marred by some awkwardness). Rees is a great promoter and marketer, whose greatest artistic successes have been tinkering with the designs of other men.

If you combine the lukewarm results of Stanley Thompson's proteges and the track record of some father-son combos (one way or the other), and it seems to me that certain key talents are essential to 'artistic' success. It is not good enough to be tutored by a talented mentor.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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DJames

Re: Does talent skip a generation?
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2003, 11:08:50 AM »
Tom, I don't know if talent and/or intelligence skips generations; however, I have observed, on many occasions, that some children of very successful private business owners fail to "make the grade" in carrying-on their parent's business or otherwise fail to exhibit the skills that lead to their parent's success.  In some cases, the parent recognizes this and sells the business rather than "pass" the business to children and in others, the kids run the business into the ground.

Rather than talent and/or IQ, I've attributed these situations to a lack of motivation and/or interest in the parent's business; a mistaken assumption that the family name was somehow "magic" and the heirs were either "sheltered" from or ignored their parent's early struggles to establish the business.

If I had to choose, my observations of the "offspring" who didn't "make it" would place more emphasis on nurture rather than nature.  

I think the same would be true in the world of golf architecture with one possible exception...

GCA is an artform.  There have been times wherein I have wondered if an "offspring's" apparent success has more to do with the family name rather than the actual work product.  Certainly, not all, but some.

Is it possible that some clubs become enamored that the "famous X" (or son of famous X) is doing the work and are reluctant to question the plans drawn because, afterall, the "famous X" is the expert?

Everyone on this board has a preference, but even with our preferred architects, some of their work products are better than others.

A lot can be said for the power of a name.  Does the power of that name distort our view of their end product?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does talent skip a generation?
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2003, 11:30:15 AM »
D. James,

That is a question deserving of another thread.  Just assuming something - or some quality - implied in a name.....

BTW, did you pick up any bankrobbing pointers from your great grand dad Jesse?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

DJames

Re: Does talent skip a generation?
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2003, 11:36:31 AM »
Jeff, I can assure you that Jesse's talents and skills have NOT missed any generation to date, with the possible exception that subesequent generations have never been caught.   ;D

BTW, thank you for noticing!   ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does talent skip a generation?
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2003, 11:41:36 AM »
Can anyone begin to imagine -- after two more generations of general coarsening -- how nasty the invective will be here about the work of Rees Jones's and Tom Fazio's granddaughters?

 8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does talent skip a generation?
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2003, 11:46:33 AM »
Dan,

Mark my words, the day either of those two gentleman pass away, people will start to miss them.  Their work will be praised, and seen for what it really is.  

That's the way it works in golf architecture!  I would love the praise, too, but am not willing to "do what it takes" to earn it. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

T_MacWood

Re: Does talent skip a generation?
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2003, 03:06:00 PM »
Jeff
Has RTJ and Dick Wilson's reputation grown since their death?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does talent skip a generation?
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2003, 03:14:54 PM »
Tom,

I think so.  Bellreive was roundly critisized for its first major.  It seemed benign and traditional for its second.  Ditto Hazeltine, etc.  

At some point, the sheer volume of tournaments played on their courses speaks well of their reputation, even if some now consider the era they represent as a transition era, and not with the same number of great courses as other eras.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does talent skip a generation?
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2003, 03:31:55 PM »
Jeff,

ASGCA architect Bruce Matthews is 3rd generation.  Grandfather, Uncle, Himself.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does talent skip a generation?
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2003, 03:33:39 PM »
Should have seen that in your original post, or recalled it from knowing all of them! ::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

ian

Re: Does talent skip a generation?
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2003, 06:01:58 PM »
I was trying to think of all father and sons.

Willie Park and Willie Jr.
David and William? Gordon
Robert, Bobbie and Rees Trent Jones
Bob and David Mootes
Dan Maples
Pete, PB, Perry Dyes
Jay and Carter Morrish
Martin and ? Hawtree
Perry and Press Maxwell
Jerry and Bruce Matthews
Jack and Jack2 Nicklaus

About skipping a generation, its an unfair comparison, since they are being compared to an exceptional person. Not only is there pressure but the standards are too high for their entire life. How do PB and Perry follow a guy who influenced a generation of architects. They can't, but what sucks for them is that Pete is the standard they are measured by.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does talent skip a generation?
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2003, 06:46:40 PM »
Jerry Matthews is Bruce Matthews III's uncle.

And I agree with Mr. Wiglers assessment of the Matthews' family talent.....Bruce is not a "cut and paste" archie...

Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jamie_Duffner

Re: Does talent skip a generation?
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2003, 07:52:20 PM »
I don't know if I can intelligently comment on the genetics thing, but a lot of this has to do with name recognition and connections.  Just like so many other professions, when mom or dad pave the way, it's not so hard to get a shot.  Not saying you stay there, but getting a shot to do something like act in a movie (Charlie Sheen, Gwyneth Paltrow, and several dozen others), cut a record (Jakob Dylan, Norah Jones and several dozen others), and finally design a golf course, can be about access/connections a lot of the time, not all the time of course.  Staying in the game requires talent, at least most of the time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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