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Jeff_Brauer

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Can Strategy and " " Coexist, Part III
« on: March 11, 2003, 07:05:39 AM »
single point tees coexist?

Here is a pet theory of mine.....If wide fairways are good, why not wide - or double - tees?  If you have big options on where to hit, why not a big option on where to hit from?

Imagine putting out, and having the option of going fifty yards left, or fifty yards right to the next tee. I don't know if the rules allow that (they would on my course) but could you not be a little non plussed if your opponent headed the opposite way? And a little confused at two completely different angles to the same fairway? Naturally, I imagine the hazards arranged to play completely differently from each tee, with possible wind advantages to each, etc.

Or, imagine an Ultra Wide tee - wider than long, perhaps 60 yards wide, and not the standard 10-12 yards wide. If the super placed the standard width tee blocks, this would provide only daily variety. But if the super utilized the entire 60 yard width, a fader may tee up right, a hooker tee up left, and each have a different strategy to the same means.

Would this be a gimmick, or would it increase strategy?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

RJ_Daley

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Re: Can Strategy and " " Coexist, Part III
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2003, 07:16:06 AM »
It would be a gimmick in my view, and contrary to the basic principle that we play the same course.  Vastly different looks at the same LZ, calling for vastly different shots if played from one side or the other of tee blocks that would be spread apart some 50 yards is not in the spirit of the game, I don't think...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dan Kelly

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Re: Can Strategy and " " Coexist, Part III
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2003, 08:01:45 AM »
Jeff --

I'm with Dick re: the "alternate" tees.

But as for ultra-wide tees:

They'd be a gimmick (until everyone copied the idea), AND they'd increase strategy. I like the idea a lot.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Can Strategy and
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2003, 08:10:03 AM »
Dan,

Regarding the double tees, I proposed those in an article for "Golf For Women" several years ago, mostly to speed play.

The idea came to me at Carnoustie, where we played in a mixed foursome on a cold day. On the eighth)?) a par 3, we took advantage of a widely split ladies tee to all tee off at the same time, thereby shortening our round by a good 36 seconds, and getting us back to the bar.

I wondered if that idea could expand on busy public courses so that an entire foursome could simultaneously tee off from a wide array of tee space, with a nominal risk of shots colliding, and a major risk of not being able to say "you da man" in reponse to your buddies tee shot!

If each player takes a minute to play the tee shot, you might save 18 X 3 minutes, or almost an hour off the round.

Only reading Simpson last night, and his comments about definition, etc (which sound very modern) did I get thinking about how much a non defined tee space may make the game a bit more confusing, and help defeat technology a bit. And, I wasn't even drinking!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

texsport

Re: Can Strategy and " " Coexist, Part III
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2003, 08:59:05 AM »
Wide tees are a great idea to speed up play and increase stategy. Would such tees require equally penalizing hazards on both sides of the fairway? These tees might encourage some interesting center of thr fairway hazards.

A fair number of courses have multiple tees which vary and also dictate the angle of attack on a given hole. It's an interesting idea to just let everyone play the hole as they see fit. I've played courses like that and been disappointed that my favorite tee wasn't in play on a given hole that day. Why not let players throw it in from wherever they want? You've got to get it in the hole at the other end no matter how you go at it.

Texsport

















« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Can Strategy and " " Coexist, Part III
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2003, 09:04:45 AM »
Jeff, Hate to bring up the "D" word, but Desmond Muirhead professed having the type of tees of which you speak. (I'm not saying I like this or not)

The idea is that on the paticular holes he would use it on, ranging two-four times a round, the superintendent would be aloowed to actually change the hole, more or less, to add variety and rest certain areas. Even the straegies would change, as they should. Unfortunately, the symbolism wouldn't. Sometimes a Egyptian Sun God is a Egyption Sun God from any angle!

But he really did some interesting stuff on par three holes because of it. He could change the angle of attack and length, which with the shaping of greens could be quite interesting, plus he did this on a lot of holes that weren't in the symbolistic theme. One hole that was sybolistic, and featured varying wide to various length tee boxes was a hole at Imperial Golf Club in Jakarta called "Temple." The hole could be played from 65 yards to 220 yards, left of the green, center of the green, right of the green. I have a image of it around here somewhere, and I'll try to scan it later today and post it.

But please remember that I don't condone this style of architecture. I just enjoyed the man who produced it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

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Re: Can Strategy and " " Coexist, Part III
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2003, 12:00:47 PM »
I wonder what Scott Hoch would have to say about this.  ::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Can Strategy and " " Coexist, Part III
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2003, 12:14:30 PM »
(In Bob Dylan singing voice)

gettin' dark, too dark to see......

Sorry if posted on the Hoch thread.  Frankly, I didn't read past page one of that one.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

RJ_Daley

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Re: Can Strategy and " " Coexist, Part III
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2003, 12:29:38 PM »
Jeff, One modern example of what I think you are proposing has been done by Mike DeVries.  Particularly, his 1rst and 9th holes at Kingsley Club have tees that attack the fairway line from over 100 yards differing angles.  The 9th actually has tees coming in at 90* difference.  If you are saying that everyone can pick their own tee and tee off simultaneously, to save time, and promote fun, I am all for that.  Just let's not then be playing for anything competitive.  Because we obviously simply are not playing the same course at that point.

If the point is merely to give players different looks to tee shots by having widely varying angles, but the whole group plays from the same direction with the same presentation of hazards, and can pick another on a subsequent round, I'm all for it.   Then it seems to me that course design in the routing, fairway and green angles becomes an interesting challenge for the archie.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Can Strategy and " " Coexist, Part III
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2003, 12:54:37 PM »
I agree with competitions going from the same tee.  As Dan says, having the tee blocks wider than normal, but not on separate tees would be sufficient there.  But thinking outside the box, why not be a little less orgaznized on fun rounds?

I am doing some work for a company now that is promoting a new twist on executive golf courses.  Basically, no tees!  You drop your ball in a simulated fairway area.  They plan a "strategy book" trying to explain to you the advantages of having played your theoretical tee shot to one side or the other, letting you pick, and playing several times over to see which strategy is more successful for you.

Neat, huh?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Art_Schaupeter

Re: Can Strategy and " " Coexist, Part III
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2003, 06:45:32 PM »
Jeff,

I like the idea of a "non" tee area.  I pursued this idea for a specific site a couple of years ago.  No formal tee box, just a large swath of turfgrass that would accomodate a few markers of varying length.  We had a wonderful site and believed we could do a very high quality golf course for a minimal cost.  This was one idea that was bandied about, though in the end it wasn't fully endorsed by everyone.  (Unfortunately, the project hasn't been endorsed by enough investors, so it languishes.) :(

The wide or split tee is also interesting, but do you need a lot of additional acreage to make it feasible?  Does it speed up play or slow it down?  I think they could really open possibilities from a strategy/design standpoint  relative to the landing area and the green site.  Might really be interesting, and give you a lot of flexibility, in a very windy environment.

Art
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Hendren

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Re: Can Strategy and " " Coexist, Part III
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2003, 06:46:03 PM »
When I lived in Dallas, I played a course that had multiple tees, but no tee markers.  Players agreed before the round on which set of tees would be used (i.e., front, middle or back), but the player with the honor teed it up anywhere on the chosen box.  I liked the concept, which significantly reduced wear and tear on the tees, but it offered a significant advantage if one was between clubs on a par three.

I believe the USGA has refused to provide course ratings in such cases and suspect the concept of a wide teeing area would be problematic as well.  

Besides, if I hit the ball from left to right and my opponents plays right to left, I am at a significant disadvantage if he holds the honor and always plays from the extreme left edge of the teeing area.  

Regards,

Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike Benham

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Re: Can Strategy and "   " Coexist, Part III
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2003, 07:32:13 PM »

Quote
Besides, if I hit the ball from left to right and my opponents plays right to left, I am at a significant disadvantage if he holds the honor and always plays from the extreme left edge of the teeing area.  

We must remember that the vision the architect has when designing the course is probably not the same one as seen by the maintenance crews, typically the ones responsible for placement of the tee markers and cutting the hole locations.

Depending on the course, a muni, CCFAD or private club, the variations of tee marker placements and hole locations are well, varied.  Are the tee markers set-up for 6-holes where a fade is the best shot, 6 for a draw, etc.?  Same on the greens ...

An extra wide tee box would cause the player to think about what strategy he would WANT to play as opposed to what he would HAVE to play if the tee box were narrower (he might not be able to play to his strength or consistant roll out of bed shot)

So, no, I don't think it would increase strategy for the player.  But I do like the idea ... and on some courses, a wider tee box would give more oppurtunites to find a level lie ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Mark_Fine

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Re: Can Strategy and " " Coexist, Part III
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2003, 08:13:35 PM »
Jeff,
How big a factor are costs/maintenance issues with wide tees and/or wide fairways?  I like both ideas but at the same time they must add considerably to the maintenance budget!  
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

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Re: Can Strategy and " " Coexist, Part III
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2003, 10:46:07 PM »
One of the best examples of a "wide" tee is a par-3 Desmond Muirhead did, I believe in Dubai, where the green is an island of sorts (although not in water I recall) and is surrounded by an entire and complete circle of continuous tee.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
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ForkaB

Re: Can Strategy and " " Coexist, Part III
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2003, 03:27:18 AM »
Less extreme than Muirhead's design is the 90 degree tee at the 17th at TPC-Sawgrass which, as I said on another thread, offers very different angles and views from the back tees vs. the forward ones.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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