[TEPaul]

David Wigler:

It isn't exactly up to an association at the regional level to technically turn down an amateur status reinstatement application--that's the business of the USGA. I should say, though, that the regional can probably make a recommendation to the USGA that someone should not be reinstated in their opinion. Refer to the second half of my post #9 about an incident like that. I said we turned him down but I should have said we didn't or wouldn't have recommended his reinstatement.

Occasionally amateur status issues had to do with amateurs violating am status rules by taking excessive prize money or remuneration and luckily we never had to recommend that anyone's status be yanked while I was on that committee. The reason, however, was all those questionable players did readily pay me my 50% cut.

Jamie Slonis:

Hope you don't mind but in my personal campaign against bunker-wol being put in bunkers where a ball might come to rest I have constantly cited that instance where you almost broke your wrist. I'm serious!

PS;

David Wigler:

You should make an exception in the case of Ian Baker Finch being reinstated. If you have less than a 10 handicap your chances of beating him would be about 50/50 at scratch! If you ever do happen to play him remember to stand well behind him when on the tee box!

[TEPaul]

"Was it at all related to the video lessons?"

GeorgeP:

It was.

[TEPaul]

JohnV:

I agree with you that reinstating a player such as Pruitt with his time on tour and his record it does seem to be pushing the envelop on amateur status reinstatement. Sometimes, though, people get a bit confused about the waiting period. Most think it's deemed to start with the date of the amateur status reinstatement application but in fact it's really from the last act of violation of amateur status which in Pruitt's case could have been about 1997 not when he filed for reinstatement.

And again, for those who don't know the details of amateur status reinstatement the rules are clear that a professional of note could never be reinstated. Certainly that would cover a huge number of professionals certainly such as Nicklaus, Watson, Miller, Woods etc.

[David Wigler]

Tom,

Thanks for the further explanation.  I still have a serious lack of understanding on what qualifies as a "Professional of note", though.  In my mind, winning any PGA Tour event would certainly make you a professional of note.  I certainly knew who Dillard Pruitt was (And not just because his wife is stunning).

Let me turn this into what might be a real situation and close to Shivas's heart.  What if Chip Beck applies for his amateur status back?  He won event on the big tour but has been almost as big a basket case as Baker-Finch for five+ years now.  Does Beck qualify?  What about a guy like Billy Ray Brown who won three times but has done nothing for five years or Bill Glasson who is 72nd all-time in earnings with 7 wins but isn't exactly a well know name?  Finally, what about Steve Jones?  He has a dream week to win the US Open, follows it up with a solid year and then fades back into obscurity.  

I am not trying to be obtuse.  I believe that none of these guys qualifies, but then Dillard would not have either in my mind.  

[John_Conley]

David Wigler:

You should make an exception in the case of Ian Baker Finch being reinstated. If you have less than a 10 handicap your chances of beating him would be about 50/50 at scratch! If you ever do happen to play him remember to stand well behind him when on the tee box!

Tom:

I'll have to borrow from John McEnroe on this one.  You CANNOT be serious.  IBF could give any 5 handicap six shots easily and wax them.

[JohnV]

Tony Zirpoli once said, "Amateur reinstatement should be purgatory, not hell."

After winning the US Mid-Amateur, David Eger was asked if he was playing better then than when he played the tour before.  His answer was, "Of course not, back then I played and practiced every day."  Isn't that the real difference?  For a professional, it is a job, for an amateur it is a lifestyle.  Once it stops being a job, the player should get the chance to return to amateur status.

Back to a comment that George made about our previous discussion on this topic.  I have less problem with the owner of a driving range being an amateur than I do with a college coach being one.  After all, the college coach is doing a lot of the same things that a club pro is in terms of teaching.

[David Wigler]

Shivas,

I do not believe they are "Qualified".  Isn't golf on a higher metaphysical plain than other athletic endeavors?  We cheer our opponent’s good shots not root for them to miss.  We call penalties on ourselves (Imagine that in basketball).  Our leaders do not get caught cutting backroom deals and in bribery scandals.  Why can't golf remain the one true bastion for real amateurs?  If you play for prize money, you are a pro.  Once a pro, always a pro (Much like the famous Andrew "Dice" Clay quote that got him banned from MTV for life).  While I was struggling to support my family, Dillard Pruitt was earning millions on the PGA Tour and Millions more in endorsements and corporate outing work.

That playing field is not level and the USGA should no better.  The problem is the slippery slope.  If you let Jamie get his status back, when he only won a couple of bucks and mostly sold shirts, then you let David Eger back when he played on the Tour but wasn't very successful, then you let Dillard Pruitt back who won on the PGA Tour but had gone into a slump, then you let John Daly back who won two majors but has taken more double digit holes in the past three years then I have.  This was not the way it was meant to be and golf (Of all things) should stand for the tradition of true amateurism.

[JSlonis]

JohnV,

I beleive you are correct, I haven't found any other info that lists players for this years Walker Cup.  That article must be incorrect as to Pruitt being named to the team.  Like you said, he was invited to the practice that the USGA held for possible invitees.

Also, in regard to many posts above: there is more than just playing for money that constitutes not being an Amateur in the eyes of the USGA.
http://www.usga.org/rules/am_status/____________________________________________________Rule 9-1c states that: players of national prominence who have acted contrary to the Rules Of Amateur Status for more than 5 years normally will not be eligible for reinstatement.
____________________________________________________
Even that Rule has vague language that allows for "wiggle room".  What constitutes National Prominence?  A ten year tour career, with over $1 million in earnings...I guess not.

[John_Conley]

When this came up with Dillard Pruitt, a USGA guy involved with the decision to reinstate said, "most people wouldn't recognize his name" - or something to that effect.  

I'm guessing half of those that did recognize his name were getting him confused with Andy Dillard anyway.

If it were up to me, Amateur status isn't something you could turn on and off like being married/divorced.  The USGA obviously disagrees.

[TEPaul]

"I'll have to borrow from John McEnroe on this one.  You CANNOT be serious.  IBF could give any 5 handicap six shots easily and wax them."

John Conley:

I'm definitely not serious if Ian has finally straightened out his accuracy, particularly off the tee. Some say they just couldn't believe what happened to him--he couldn't hit a 75 yd wide fairway if his life depended on it. I hope he corrected that but if not he was a total mess and not one who could compete well at all in anything. Maybe you never heard about this tragic development. The reason that happened I believe was due to an eye injury but maybe he's done something about that. Ian Baker Finch was one of the truly great guys who ever played the tour in my book!

David Wigler:

After a while I'll get the amateur status wording, post it and you can decide for yourself what a "professional of note" means. Of course you must recognize what you think it means may not be the same thing as the USGA's amateur status committee thinks it means at any point in time. Those players you mentioned I doubt would get their am status back, but I probably would've said the same thing about Dillard Pruitt until they gave it back to him.

I don't want you to think that I'm making light of this issue of tour pros returning to amateur ranks--I'm not. I'm a real believer in Bobby Jones's remark "there's golf and then there's tournament golf". The levels of demarcation between tour calibler players and even good amateurs is pretty dramatic in their abilities to compete successfully. A good deal of it in my mind is simply their really superior ability to manage their games well in a whole tournament sense which has so much to do with experience, poise and a much better psychological outlook on the ups and downs of golf in a "whole tournament" sense.

So in this sense a player coming off say the PGA tour even if he doesn't hit the ball as impressively as some amateur players still has a huge advantage over them in "whole tournament" context.

So I certainly do realize that a guy like Dilliard Pruitt if he's playing well does have a real advantage over most all the amateurs. The PGA tour players just really know how to score well--even in relation to the medium players on the NIKE tour. At least that's the way Matt Kucher explained it in quite some detail--and he should know as he's played on all those levels recently and does understand the differences.

Does that difference trouble me and a tour pro like Pruitt returning to the amateur ranks? I really don't know how I feel about that or how to answer it.  

[John_Conley]

John Conley:

I'm definitely not serious if Ian has finally straightened out his accuracy, particularly off the tee. Some say they just couldn't believe what happened to him--he couldn't hit a 75 yd wide fairway if his life depended on it. I hope he corrected that but if not he was a total mess and not one who could compete well at all in anything. Maybe you never heard about this tragic development. The reason that happened I believe was due to an eye injury but maybe he's done something about that. Ian Baker Finch was one of the truly great guys who ever played the tour in my book!

Tom:

Ian Baker-Finch, like Scott Hoch, has a reputation that has been greatly exaggerated.  He hit one O.B. - I believe LEFT on #1 at St. Andrews - and all of a sudden "couldn't hit a 75 yd wide fairway if his life depended on it".  Yeah, right.

He obviously was unable to compete on Tour.  He didn't turn into a hack.  I know the guy who finished last this week at Doral.  Not a friend, but I know him and have played with him.  He had two rounds in the 80s on Thursday and Friday - a whopping three days after shooting either 63 or 65 to Monday qualify.  (I'm told he was not at the site where two 67s got through.)  Tour setup is not what the club golfer faces.

A five-handicap averages about 80 on a 6600 yard course.  Their best rounds are in the mid 70s and occassionally they'll scare par.  IBF may not have been shooting those scores on Tour, but he sure did in "friendlies".  My money is on Finch every day of the week.  Even against a 0 handicap club player.

As for one of the nicest guys ever, did you notice how he became nicer when he couldn't play?  Don't know him and he is by all accounts a great guy, but full disclosure should include this story.

Just after his peak and position as one of the World's Top Ten players, Finch was playing in the U.S. Open at Hazeltine.  Made the cut on the number and was "odd man out" Saturday morning.  The U.S.G.A. offered him the use of a marker.  I don't want to play with any amateur, he said.

Fast forward a year to that amateur's presence on the next Walker Cup team and subsequent victory in the U.S. Amateur.  Several more Walker Cups followed and he now plays the Champions Tour.  He may be far too nice a guy to say it, but I reckon he wouldn't want to play with Finch now either.

The best/hottest Tour pros would carry handicaps of +10 or better.  Average Tour pros are in the +5 to +6 range.  Today's college players are +2 and +3.  All could see huge drops in the level of their play and still destroy your 8 and 9 handicaps - players who need their best day to score on the better side of 80 from Members tees.

[David Wigler]

Tom,

Thank you for the reply.  I wish the USGA would really struggle with this issue and then come out with a true standard instead of one that is way too vague in its verb use.

PS - I certainly would not play IBF for money getting 3 a side.  My ass does not look good waxed.

[TEPaul]

John Conley:

Obviously I'm being facetious saying Ian Finch could not beat a 5 handicapper when he went into such a massive slump (One of these days I'll figure out how to use a smiley face so you'll pick up on my facetiousness).

Whatever the reason for his slump, though, those at the level he'd played on were shocked by his slump and the extent of it. I don't know for certain but I have a real feeling it had to do with a pretty serious eye injury he suffered following his British Open win which he never talked about (probably because he got punched in the eye with his glasses on in a bar in Australia).

As for him being a good guy or not--that's interesting the story you just cited with the amateur but my story was right here in a series of incidents that were indicative of the way I believe him to be. No point in going into them but he had nothing to gain that's for sure and were things frankly he probably never even realized anyone may have been watching.

Just a very outgoing and gracious guy certainly compared to the more cautious attitude of almost all his fellow competitors.

[TEPaul]

"do you think the old Jones line about golf and tournament golf holds water today?  Let's face it.  Today's amateurs play tournament schedules that would send jones back to Atlanta for a julip.  When he said that, there were friendly matches and tournament golf.  Now, most college sophomores have played more tournaments than Jones did in a lifetime.  I believe there is validity to the statement, even today, but I'm questioning whether it's as valid as it was 70 years ago.  Thoughts?"  

Shivas;

My thoughts are I certainly do believe in that Jones line today. Perhaps you thought I meant only todays tour players compared to everyone else. Nothing of the kind.

It's amazing to see how tournament savy and tournament tough, composed, poised even some of these really good national junior amateurs are today who play the circuits--not to mention the really good college players.

Those players are 20 times more sophisticated about the difference between tournament golf and recreational golf as some fan who's been watching golf on TV for 40 years and has never played competitive tournament golf on a decent level.

When I see lifelong recreational handicap golfers who've never played tournament golf telling everyone they know better than Phil Mickelson what he should and shouldn't do it's just completely ludicrous to me---they have no earthly idea--why would they?

It's not that much different, in my book, than them telling us they know how Jeff Gordon should improve on a lap around the Daytona 500 at 191 MPH. It's ludicrous that they should think they know better. How could they? They've never been in a remotely similar situation. The same is true between high level tournament golf and recreational golf just as Jones once said it was.

As far as what Jones himself might think of some of these players today--be it tour, top level college or even top level junior I would remind you of the remark he made in the 1960s about Nicklaus. Jones was as aware as anyone how things had changed. The reason was he understood it all as well as anyone--he'd been there to know!

[Mike Benham]

Ok, I can waffle on the issue of how long and when to reinstate amateur status, to Dillard or not to Dillard.

But what concerns me is that Eger turned Pro AGAIN!  Did all the practice he did when he was a amateur make him a better golfer to be on the Champions Tour?

Will the Champions Tour allow Dillard to enter their events (he ranked higher on the career money list than Eger so he may have an easier go at getting exemptions).

If told at the time of his reinstatement that he would not be allowed to turn pro again, what would be his decision?

The old saying of "You can't have your cake and eat it too" shouldn't work but it does, twice ...

[David Wigler]

Mike,

I had the same thought.  As someone who will be a career amateur (Mainly because I am never going to be good enough to be a pro), I struggle with professionals returning to the amateur ranks when they can no longer compete as pros and then going back as a pro again.  In addition to saying anyone who qualifies on the PGA Tour cannot return to becoming an Amateur, I would state that anyone who regains their Amateur status cannot enter PGA or Senior PGA tour school.  They must win an event as a Monday Qualifier or Sponsors exemption if they want to return to the pro ranks.  That IMO would protect the integrity of the amateur ranks and insure that Amateurs are not playing against pseduo-professionals in hiding.

[Robert_Walker]

Congratulations to David Eger on his big win last week!

[John_Conley]

John Conley:

Obviously I'm being facetious saying Ian Finch could not beat a 5 handicapper when he went into such a massive slump (One of these days I'll figure out how to use a smiley face so you'll pick up on my facetiousness).

IBF is, by everyone's account, a great guy.  Like many professionals, he lost his game.  He was a world Top 10 and fell further than most, but the notion that he all of a sudden became a guy who might not win a club championship was a big exaggeration.

As far as the EMOTICONS, they are pretty easy to use.  Just type in SEMI-COLON RIGHT-PARENTHESIS with no space in between and it makes a winking smiley.  COLON RT.-PARENTHESIS makes the straight smiley face.  If you don't want to do the keystrokes, just stop typing and use your mouse to point at the proper face in the "Add SMILEYS" line above your text.  Then use your mouse to direct your cursor back to your place in the "Message" part.  Very easy.  

I also encourage everyone to use the UBB Code to introduce colors to their posts.  Bold and italics can make things much more readable.  For more on UBB Code, just hit HELP.

[Robert_Walker]

Did anyone see the last round. I heard that he birided the last 3 holes.
I also noticed that he is playing with Ben Crenshaw today.
Good for David!
I know that he is striking the ball well. Let's hope the putts keep dropping.

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