[George Pazin]

David Eger won his first Champions Tour event today - way to go, David.

David used to contribute periodically to the DG - I guess his new career has kept him too busy, to our loss. Maybe after the season he can share some thoughts.

At any rate, congratulations are certainly in order. Nice to see someone from on board winning. Maybe someone else will go far at this year's US Am. If so, the party's at my house.

[JohnV]

George, the party can be at my apartment, it is a lot closer to the course.

Congratulations to David.  He is a really good guy and a great player.

[TEPaul]

My congratulation to David Eger too! It's always nice to see a career amateur for the first half of his career do well on the Senior pro circuit!

Actually, David Eger's career is a bit more complicated than that. First an amateur (obviously) then a pro, then an amateur again until senior age and then a pro again!

So congratulations David, and by the way, if you're looking for your amateur status back again someday don't come to the Philly secton to get it--we ain't givin' it to you! There's only so many times you can change your mind and you were too good for the amateurs anyway. Plus you need to stay where you are--certainly the dough is better over there!

[David Wigler]

All I have ever heard about David is that he is a class individual and I know that he is a personal friend of some on this DG.  Perhaps therefore, this is the wrong forum for this question as he deserves congratulations but doesn't this prove the hypocrisy of granted his application to return to amateur status.  You are either an amateur or a pro.  David was a great amateur, struggled as a pro, was allowed to return and beat up on true amateurs and is now back as a pro, once he can compete again.  In my book, either you are an amateur or you are not.  I truly congratulate David but I will take no more pleasure when Dillard Pruitt wins his first Champions event.

[JohnV]

David, in your book that is the way it will be, but in the book that is written by the USGA and R&A, David did exactly what he was allowed to do.  Now that he has won, I doubt he can get his Amateur status back again when he turns 55 and wants to win the Senior Amateur.

I know that there are many people out there who don't like players having the ability to get re-instated as an amateur.  Many of these are even on USGA Committees (I've heard the grumbles at the Mid-Amateur.)  Perhaps some day they will change the rules to make it more difficult, but I doubt it.

[David Wigler]

John,

You are far more plugged in than me.  Why do they make it easy for pro's to get back their amateur status?  Dillard Pruitt certainly is not driving the next TV contract.  I understand a club pro who never won a dime, but what is the upside to letting a guy who played on the PGA Tour compete against computer salesmen?

[TEPaul]

David Wigler;

I'm glad the book on the rules for amateur status reinstatement is not same as your book. The rules are pretty darn clear on reinstatement. The reason I know is because I ran the committee around here for 5-6 years that processes amateur status reinstatements regionally and sends them on to the USGA. If you're wondering if David Eger could get his am status back again after being a pro twice the answer would almost without question be no--even if he hadn't won the tournament yesterday.

[JohnV]

Tom,  I thought you could do it twice, but the second time was a longer wait.

David,
The reasoning is that a player should be given the right to try to make it as a professional, but if he doesn't have too much success (Sorry Tiger) he can get his status back.  The wait for someone who played on the tour is usually 2 years from the time they last competed for cash.  That seems long enough for me, but I do admit that if a number of ex-tour players start doing this as a warmup for the Seniors it might concern me.  Eger had so little success that I don't think we would have noticed if he hadn't worked for the PGA Tour and USGA after his career.  Pruitt on the other hand did have some amount of success and I was somewhat surprised that he got his status back.

[David Wigler]

Tom,

I never said that David was not within the rules and I know he is a friend/acquaintance of yours.  I questioned what the benefit to amateur golf was for allowing PGA touring pro's to become amateurs again.  The question was not whether he was within his rules to become an amateur.  It was why is there a provision to allow such a thing?  If the decision were based on some success as a professional, then I would say qualifying for the PGA Tour ends any doubt.  How many guys tried Q-school last year?  How many made it?  If you were able to make it to the PGA Tour and then want to return to being an amateur, I do not believe it should be allowed.  Of course, you can golf whenever and wherever you want.  I just do not get the upside to allowing a guy like Dillard Pruitt to compete against guys who have lived 7-5 lives selling computers.

[TEPaul]

JohnV;

Maybe you can get reinstated twice technically under the rules. None of these things are automatic though. But I'm sure you know they do depend upon the circumstances.

And I know you know that the regional asociations really just get the forms done and collect the info, process it, vote on it and send it along to the USGA to decide what the deal is then they send it back to the regional near the end of the waiting period and the regional votes again, then the regional returns it the USGA who reinstates.

After all those years on the Am Status Committee I don't remember us turning anyone down at the first step except once.

It was some guy who was a pro and eventually got his Am status back. Then he wanted to enter US Open qualifying but his handicap was too high so his entry was turned down. So he turned pro again just to enter the first stage of qualifying, missed by a country mile, then immedetially reapplied for his Am status. We turned him down at the first step regionally.

[JSlonis]

First of all Congratulations to David Eger.

For the Dillard Pruitt issue, I heard there was alot of grumbling in the Amateur ranks after he won the 2002 Sunnehanna Invitational, a big national amateur tournament, the 2002 Canadian Amateur Championship, and was also named to the 2003 Walker Cup Team.

Right out of college I was in the PGA Apprentice program as an Assistant Pro(giving lessons, selling shirts, etc.) . After a couple of years, I realized I didn't want to be in the golf  business anymore and I was reinstated to Amateur status after the two year minimum waiting period.  The problem I have with this situation is that Dillard Pruitt had a 10 year career($1.18 Million career earnings), was a WINNER on the PGA Tour and it took about the SAME time for him to get reinstated as it did me.  There is something not right about that.

Interesting article...

http://www.golfbusinessmagazine.com/pageview.asp?doc=775

[TEPaul]

"I questioned what the benefit to amateur golf was for allowing PGA touring pros to become amateurs again."

DavidW:

The benefits are pretty straightforward and simple really. They're so those guys who tried it on tour and failed could come home again and for a number of years beat the brains out of their friends who'd remained amateurs! I don't know if that's a benefit to amateur golf but at least it's a benefit to someone.    

An old better ball partner of mine was an interesting case. Very fine player, went on tour, got tired of it after a year or two, came home, entered the local PGA Section Championship, they locked him out, he sued the PGA of America bigtime which eventually led to the formation of the PGA Tour, he eventually got into the local PGA Section championship, won it, got tired of being a pro, applied for his Am status reinstatement, got it, and has been around the amateur tournament ranks for years playing golf, having a great time most of the time and making a general pain in the ass out of himself the rest of the time!

We had a pretty good better ball partnership because I'm so calm I was the only guy who could listen to all his yakking, could keep him from levitating on the golf course or threatening to sue some fellow competitor!

[David Wigler]

Tom,

I clearly understand why a guy like Jamie should get his Am status back.  Let me ask you an honest question.  Hypothetically, you are still in charge of the committee and Dillard Pruitt's form comes before you.  This is not some guy who sold shirts for a living.  He was a PGA Tour member for 10 years, won north of $1M playing and more than twice that in corporate outings and endorsements and won a PGA Tour event.  Do you vote to reinstate him?  

I would clearly describe his career as a success and tell him to enjoy playing with his friends but leave the Mid-Am for the working stiffs of the world – one of who just lost their once-in-a-lifetime chance to represent the US in the Walker Cup to a “Professional Amateur.”

[David Wigler]

George,

Sorry to hijack your thread.

David Eger,

If you still read GCA, congratulations on your victory, I truly mean nothing personal by this and would love your opinion on the Amateur Reinstatement rule as it applies to a guy who sells shirts in a golf shop, a moderately successful pro such as yourself and a PGA Tour Winner like Dillard Pruitt.

[George Pazin]

David -

No problem - for me to complain would definitely be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

That's an interesting link Jamie posted. When I heard Pruitt had been named to the Walker Cup team, I assumed it was some sort of non-playing captaincy. I can kind of see reinstating his amateur status (don't really agree with it, but it's no big deal to me - he's not taking my spot in US Am qualifying ), but naming him to the Walker Cup squad definitely seems to go against the grain of that competition. I'd be curious to hear the logic behind choosing him (other than, we wanna win).

[TEPaul]

DavidW:

I don't run that committee any more but if I did and Dillard Pruitt's amateur reinstatement application came through my fax I would be on the phone to Tony Zirpoli at the USGA in about one half second. But deciding what to do is not generally up to the regionals. They basically process it and send it on to the USGA. But I sure never had a reinstatement application for anyone who had actually been on the PGA Tour for ten years. That might require a longer waiting period.

Would you buy a waiting period of about ten years David? Sort of like throwing the guy into purgatory with a punishment that fits his crime.

So you think it was OK for Jamie Slonis to come off the pro ranks and blithely walk in here and nab our Patterson Cup Championship do you?

Well, I can tell you three minutes after he won that I had his amateur status reinstatement application on the computer screen and if he'd screwed up a single question, if he hadn't crossed every T and dotted every I and signed and dated everything correctly I would have chased him all over the Wilmington or Fieldstone Golf course trying to rip that trophy out of his arms!

[TEPaul]

George P:

Come on now think twice about what you said about Pruitt and the Walker Cup team.

The Walker Cup is selected by the USGA and if the USGA is going to give Pruitt his amateur status back they can't very well then treat him like some kind of pariah if he wins the Sunnehanna and the Canadian amateur. They have to know that he might do well as an amateur when considering his reinstatement application. If they gave it to him and then treated him differently than any other amateur regarding his amateur accomplishments that would be low, underhanded, two-faced, dispicable and hypocritical. Is there any other negative description you can think of I should throw in there if they did that?

[Doug Wright]

Looks like this issue is live across the pond too...

Ex-Female Pro Golfer to Sue Over Status

By KRYSTYNA RUDZKI
Associated Press Writer

LONDON (AP), March 10, 2003 -- Former British Open champion Vivien Saunders wants her amateur status back, and she's ready to take on the "old boys in blazers" who set the rules at one of golf's most venerable clubs.

"The whole rules on amateur status are outdated," Saunders told The Associated Press. "If you teach golf, and I've been a coach for years and years and years, you can't play in anything. You're classified as a professional golfer."

Saunders, founder of the first European women's tour, plans to take the Royal & Ancient golf club to court. The 57-year-old lawyer said Monday she intends to take her case to the Court of Sessions, the highest court in Scotland, under Britain's Human Rights Act.

The R&A is an all-male private club at the home of golf in St. Andrews, Scotland. Saunders' dispute comes at a time when Martha Burk is leading opposition to the all-male Augusta National Golf Club, the site of the Masters, and plans a protest there next month.

Saunders played her last pro tournament 15 years ago. Her last pro win was 20 years ago. She helped win the Curtis Cup for Britain and Ireland over the United States in 1968.
  
When she asked about the prospects of being a pro golfer that year, Saunders says golf authorities took away her amateur status.

She has spent three decades as a teaching pro and coach and now wants to play competitive golf again. She applied for reinstatement as an amateur in 2000. The R&A told her she would have to wait three years, compared with two years in the United States. Three appeals were denied by the R&A, the governing body of golf worldwide outside the United States and Mexico.

"They're trying to pretend that they're not discriminatory," she said. "They're trying to pretend that they've got this wonderful appeals procedure, but you're only appealing to same old boys in blazers who make the rules anyway. They think they're slightly below God and just above the government."

R&A secretary Peter Dawson said the club wasn't breaking the law.

"We don't think there is a human rights issue here," Dawson said. "There is no gender issue here. Of course, if there is, we'll have to modify the way that we deal with these things. But our advice is, it isn't an issue."

Dawson said the R&A was willing to alter its amateur rules.

"Every few years, there's a slight relaxation," he said. "But we do believe that the principle of a distinction is important for golf. That's thoroughly supported by the professional and amateur golfing authorities."

Dawson said Saunders was lucky to even be considered for reinstatement. He said the rules state "players of national prominence" who have been professional for more than five years can't return to amateur status.

"The R&A decided that in this case, we would be willing to entertain the application," he said.

Saunders competed on the LPGA Tour in the United States from 1969-71, then played in Australia and Japan. Saunders won the British Open in 1977 before setting up the first European women's pro tour in 1979.

She now runs two country clubs near Cambridge in central England.
 

[George Pazin]

Yikes - rebuked by one of my favorite posters. If Slag, JohnV & Dan King join you, I may have to seek counseling.

I have reconsidered my position - but not changed it.

Here are my thoughts - disagree with them if you will, but please consider them at least somewhat thought out:

Much of what we do on this site &, indeed, in life in general, is draw lines. If I were King of the World (& really, I think the one thing we can all agree on is that we would be better off if I were King ), I would instruct the USGA to develop some sort of formula along the lines of:

- golfers like Jamie being banned for 2 years (sorry, Jamie)

- golfers who play on the Tour being banned for 2 years + 1 additional year for each year played on Tour (maybe 6 mos. for each year in the minors, I don't know, have to think more about that).

- at some point (for me, 10 years total), I'd cut someone off with no chance of reinstatement (also, if you win a major while a pro, you're banned permanently), with some sort of mitigating circumstances for senior competition.

There are plenty of places for these guys to get their competition fix elsewhere. Satellite tours, local pro events, whatever. I don't believe much in the average guy's notion of fairness in golf, but I do believe in fairness when it comes to making rules & defining standards. It seems to me that someone who spends years of his life on Tour has an unfair advantage relative to his amateur counterparts, so this should be lessened through longer suspensions (& eventually permanent bans).

If you disagree where I choose to draw the line, consider this:

Tiger has been a pro for what, 6+ years? If he decided, what the hell, I've got a cool quarter billion in the bank, why don't I forsake my pro status, take my 2 year ban (gotta be fair & consistent, don't you? ), and spend the rest of my playing days going after Bobby Jones' grand slam of US & British Opens & Ams in the same calendar year - would you think this is right?

Separately, if you did think this was "right", would you consider it within the spirit of what Jones accomplished?

That is my point relative to the Walker Cup. Because the team is selected, not earned through objective criteria (that's my understanding, anyway), I would like to see the spirit of the competition prevail & not select players like Mr. Pruitt. (No offense to him personally - I don't know him & I'm sure he's a great guy if he loves our great game.)

However, I will say my knowledge of history re: the Walker Cup is sorely lacking, & if any of our historians on board show me some evidence that it has a history of cutthroat attempts to field the best team possible (screw the spirit of the competition), then I'll reconsider my position yet again & post further thoughts.

Hope that helps...

[TEPaul]

George P;

That wasn't a rebuke--just a love pat.

The Amateur Status reinstatement rules have been pretty specific as far as I can see on a pro golfer of real stature. It's been clear for years that a pro who won a major or who was very well recognized as a professional golfer would not ever be reinstated as an amateur. In that context Tiger Woods probably passed the point of ever getting his amateur status back within a month into his professional career.

[TEPaul]

GeorgeP:

Did you know Bobby Jones apparently quit competition because the USGA was threatening to yank his amateur status?

[David Wigler]

George,

I love your formula for amateur status.  I would add one additional addendum - If you win a PGA Tour sanctioned event, you cannot be reinstated!  Anyone capable of winning with the big boys, is and forever should remain a professional (I do not want to see Ian Baker-Finch as my opponent in the next Mid-Am).

Tom,

Out of curiosity (And if you are uncomfortable, feel free to answer without the culprit) did you ever get an application that was turned down?  If yes, could you share the name.  I am curious as to what level of player you had to be to be turned down for returning to an amateur.

[George Pazin]

Tom P -

Was it at all related to the video lessons?

When I see those on TGC, I always wonder why he was always considered an amateur by the powers that be. I always assumed those lessons were filmed well after his announced retirement.

As an aside, I was discussing amateur status with my favorite rules guru, JohnV, & I found it interesting that one could own a driving range & still be considered an amateur if one did not give lessons, and that one could accept free equipment & still be considered an amateur - but a hole in one prize over $500 (?$1,000) caused suspension of amateur status for one year.

Given all that, I suppose I should mention that I will now accept any offers of equipment, should any manufacturers wish to send me anything. Contact me at g@sgscreenprinting.com.

[JSlonis]

Tom,

I told you I was "squeaky clean"...but, if you did have to chase me down, I would have been easy to find...I would have been in that bunker at Fieldstone TEARING out that BUNKER WOL that almost tore my wrist apart!

[JohnV]

Other than the article JSlonis referenced, I have yet to find any article that says that Dillard Pruitt has been named to the Walker Cup or that anyone has been for that matter.  Pruitt was among a group of 20 or so players invited down to Sea Island last November for a practice/try-out session for potential Walker Cupper players, which is probably what the article referred to.  Usually most of the Walker Cup team is not named until the near the end of the college season with a few spots reserved for the US Am winner and other top performers over the summer.

As I said, I think that giving Pruitt his amateur status back pushed the envelope pretty far.  Possibly too far.  I find it hard to believe that it could go any further.  The last year that Pruitt won anything on tour was 1997 ($6000) and his victory was in 1991 and was probably in the least significant event on tour.  I don't know if he played on tour at any time after 1997 and didn't win anything, but 5 years is a pretty long time to be out of competition so why not let him play again somewhere.

David Eger won a total $26,492 on tour in the 1970's.  Hardly a record deserving of a life long banishment.  I don't know exactly when he got his amateur status back, but he won the US Mid-Amateur in 1988 so he was an amateur at least 13 years before trying for the Senior tour last year.  That doesn't sound like someone who was just trying to fill his time until he turned 50.

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