[Forrest Richardson]

I think No. 17 at TPC Sawgrass is one of the best. It is pure defense...100% defense! Bill, I agree.

Patrick: Take a closer look. Had your first visual of this hole been a grainy black and white photo with 1920s cars in the background and imature trees, credited to Raynor, you would have gone crazy over the hole and you'd be here with us all lauding its merits.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Forrest Richardson,

I view # 6 at NGLA as you do # 17 at TPC, all defense.
The differences are, at NGLA sand and scrub replace water and the green at NGLA is so much more demanding to putt on.

They are purely, aerial, target golf holes, with little margin for error, with # 17 being more demanding or less forgiving.

There really aren't many options in the play of the hole, whereas the 8th at NGLA abounds with options and different methods of play.  I think that diversity seperates it from the one shotter with no options that you cite.

[Forrest Richardson]

Best option I ever heard at #17 was the group who hit dozens of balls amongst them and simply went off to #18 after taking a few photos.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Forrest Richardson,

Real golfers would have sent back to the proshop for more ammo !  

[Brian Phillips]

Pat and Forrest,

Get over and play Kingsbarns...the greatest manufactured 18 holes in the world.....so well manufactured...you think it is natural...

Forrest,

Have you a reply to me about Palooza 2003?

Brian.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

You're wrong again and this time about your favorite hole--NGLA's #8. You said it was manufactured stem to stern--it's not. It's manufactured bigtime on the stem (green) a little bit on the stern (tee), some along the deck (berm and bunkering in the fairway) and that's it. But I know in your heart you'll admit if Fazio or Rees could have gotten their dozers on that hole they would have manufactured the whole damn ocean on both sides of that ship (#8 )!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

So, is it your contention that the row of bunkers that run down the middle of the fairway just happened there, naturally ?

Do you also feel that the 6-8 foot high berm that crosses the entire hole near where the rough ends and the fairway begins is a natural phenomenon ?  Strangely reappearing on the other side of the road on # 11 ?

And, are you positive that the canted fairway had no assistance from man ?

L ::)K before you leap !

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I don't think I have to answer all those silly questions about the berm and fairway bunkering on the right because I already did, but this one;

"And, are you positive that the canted fairway had no assistance from man ?

Yeah, I'm sure about that. Unless you're asking if the fairway grass and fairway cut were there before Macdonald got there.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Did you know some of the midsection of #11 was redesigned by Jack Nicklaus? Did you also know when Jack once overheard Pete Dye talking about C.B. Macdonald he asked him who that was? Did you know C.B's gate and the driveway used to be well to the north with a tee on #18 that was about 50 yards longer until Rees redesigned the position of the driveway and the gates to where they are today and shortened #18?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Interesting, I didn't know that Rees was involved before 1928, thirteen years before he was born.  It just goes to show you that you learn something new, every day on this site.

[Matt_Cohn]

There's a whole category of manufactured holes that are so good that people don't realize they're manufactured.

I heard Nick Faldo talking about Royal Melbourne West #5 that way...and certainly there are a lot of others that are much more manufactured than most of us realize.

Aren't those the best?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Cohn,

Some individuals, I won't mention any names, think that the
8th at NGLA was discovered, in nature, in its present form.

Many individuals think that NGLA was discovered, not created by CBM.

Maybe that's a testament to his work, or confirmation of their lack of perception, or a little of both.

[Tom_Doak]

I guess I'm one of those architects who tries to make his holes look natural.  (Wink, wink, nod, etc.)

I'll go with Ran's nomination of #4 at Hollywood as the most artificial-looking great hole I've seen.  However, it should be noted that a lot of great holes look very artificial in their 1920's photos ... eighty years of landscaping is a hell of an advantage.

The best manufactured hole we've done might be #14 at Pacific Dunes.  There was a ridge of dunes, but there wasn't a green site there at all -- it took a lot of fill to build it.  Ironically, it comes right after #13 which is the most natural hole I have ever built, and no one ever says anything about the difference, so I guess we did pretty well with #14!

[T_MacWood]

Ironically the 4th at Hollywood looked less artificial in the 20's than it does today. The bunkering carved into the flanking mounds looked more in tune, and there was large gaping bunker directly in front of the green that dominated the view from the tee and completed a much more natural picture.

[TEPaul]

TomD:

One day I hit my ball along the left side of #14 at Pac Dunes and it did seem to be built up and manufactured over there. I guess I must have looked out to the left a bit to notice the difference. It does look good though--not something many would notice or think of. I can see a little more growth over time might cover things over from back at that early time though.

But when you have a bunch of addicted architecture junkies out there you can expect them to look for things they shouldn't be looking for and most golfers would never look for or notice in a million years.

The time I found some drain head way out in the bushes though--that sure impressed me. I don't know if it's true or not but I remember thinking; "Wow look at that thing hidden under a bush way out here, at least it isn't in the middle of the fairway."

[ForkaB]

The 2nd and 6th and 10th at Dornoch are 3 of the best short holes in the world and all manufactured.

[BCrosby]

But isn't the more interesting question: what are the best holes that are shamelessly artificial; that make no pretense whatsoever about appearing "natural"?

A much smaller set of candidates.

Again, my vote goes to any on the four Biarritz holes I've played.

Another vote for the 17th at the TPC Stadium course.

A final vote for the 5th at Yeaman's.

Bob

[TEPaul]

"Interesting, I didn't know that Rees was involved before 1928, thirteen years before he was born."

Pat:

That's what I keep trying to tell you. It's amazing the stuff you don't know. Just stick with me and I'll educate you.

[T_MacWood]

Pat and Rich seem to have a very liberal definition of 'completely manufactured'. What is the defintion of a completely manufactured golf hole?

[ForkaB]

Tom MacW

My understanding is that you have never been to Dornoch.  If I am wrong and you have and can comment intelligently on my comment, please feel free to do so.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom MacWood;

That was my question exactly.  Patrick seems to believe that more of NGLA's 8th hole is manufactured than my 20-30% estimate, but he didn't say by how much.

Contrasted with something like Whistling Straits, Shadow Creek, TPC Sawgrass, etc., it seems that we're clearly talking apples and ceramic apples.  

[Forrest Richardson]

Tom -- In my perspective, completely manufactured is akin to No. 17 at TPC Sawgrass, which I also feel a grand example. I do not hold the holes mentioned at Dornoch as being completely manufactured as the drainage and ancient terrain was probably very active in their make-up. I did not know both of these men were liberals, but things like this are always good to know before you are invited to dinner or asked to attend a wedding or something.

[Mike_Cirba]

Rich;

I haven't been to Dornoch yet either, unfortunately.

Could you educate me on what makes those holes wholly manufactured in your view, based on your understanding of the architectural history of Dornoch?  What percentage of those holes from tee to green were molded and constructed entirely by man's hand?  Did the architect(s) of Dornoch utilize any of the natural dunesland as it sat, or was the entire thing sculpted?

Thanks for helping my understanding.

[ForkaB]

Mike

I made my points on these holes in the "Architectural Evolution of Royal Dornoch" piece I wrote which is in the "Course by Country" section of this website.  As I said there, my thoughts are speculative and informed, but not conclusive.  That being said, here are my speculations, based on the geography:

2--a "volcano" hole on the higher "raised beach" part of the course where such land forms do not really exist.  There is evidence that the hole was manufactured by Sutherland (in opposition to Ross, who wanted to build a punchbowl green to the right).  The tee was probably more leveled than built.

6--a green which was pretty obviously cut into the hill separating the higher and lower raised beaches in 1946 by Duncan, McCulloch and Grant.  It is a beautiful hole--perhaps the most photographed one at Dornoch, but it is not natural.  The tees are also cut out from the hillside.

10--a green which was pushed up from a flat and very narrow piece of pure linksland.  Again, not a landform which exists naturally on the site.  The tee was again probably leveled rather than built.

Sorry to you (and Tom MacW) for using the hyperbolic "completely."  However, with a par 3, if the green is manufactured, "completely" pretty much says it all about the hole, IMHO.

Hope this helps.

[Forrest Richardson]

Rich -- Good information. And points. I agree mostly.

But, having been to Dornoch I'd still have to say that the landforms and terrain define the course. For example, to cut a green into a hillside you still must begin with a hillside. So this is not completely manufactured. Rather, it is "cleverness", and perhaps, "survival", for a course may not have been able to be routed without such cutting.

I feel this thread is about such holes as No. 17 at TPC Sawgrass. For although there was a lowlands there it was clearly not a lake, nor was there anything else but a backdrop of trees. I would also place most any hole (name two or three) of Shadow Creek in this "best of" catagory. Certainly there is no other course (yet) which so clearly defies logic as SC.

Also, a question: Do those who have jumped in here feel that "best" in this case is trying to attain the look of naturalness? I did not feel so when I read the initial question. Rather, I feel this thread is best about completely manufactured holes which may take cues from nature, but which are in their own world, of a different spin. Thoughts?

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