[Andy Levett]

I built it on a 320 yard par 4, feeling that length would best replicate for today's players the thrill MacDonald expected with a 220 yard hole.  

Reading Jeff's description of the Biarritz he built made me wonder how long a modern-day Redan should be.

The North Berwick original is currently 192yards and I am assuming (I don't know) was about that length 100 years ago, when a good club player would need to take driver in typical conditions for a shot of that length - the club also best suited to the low, running right-to-left shot required.
For the mediocre player making the green would be a rare, much talked about, event.

So a Redan being built today should, IMO, be considerably longer to work properly.

But how long? If it's more than 250 from the back tee can it still be a Par 3?  If the par is 4 does that matter? Are archies building them longer?

Cheers

[TEPaul]

Andy:

No redan I've ever heard of was originally designed to be a driver for good players. I could see something like that on a biarritz style though. The closest thing to a redan of that length might have been William Flynn's #10 Rollng Green that was originally designed at 260yd now probably around 235 tops. It's not really a redan though and the run-up fairway is much longer, wider and less complex than a redan.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have cheerfully built at least 3 par 3's in the last two year that exceed the 250 yard length from the championship tees.  What is the USGA gonna' do to me?

The Quarry at Giant's Ridge, Biwabik, MN and the Creek Course at INdian Creek, Carrollton, TX (261 yards each) and Colbert Hills, about 267 yards. I may have another in south Texas coming, but I right now, its only a "measly" 236 yards!

To answer your question, I think those are just guidelines.  It is theoretically possible to have a 200 yard par 4, if you determine that, because of a treed dogleg, you couldn't reach the green in one shot.  And courses, like Augusta, have exceeded the recommended yardage for years.  The tenth was always longer than 13, but also about a mile downhill, so it played shorter.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TePaul,

The Redan at Chicago is 220 or so.  In 1922, would that represent a driver?  Its at least a three wood in those days for sure!

I always wondered how that one played in those days....

[Andy Levett]

TE Paul
The Redan at North Berwick was built in 1869. I imagine 192 yards would have been a decent whack with  the equipment  back then for a good club player (single figures,  say).
But as I said in my first post, I don't know if the hole has been extended since then.

[TEPaul]

I hear what you guys are saying but in my opinion a redan hole is much better if not a driver hole. To me it's a much better hole and concept when the idea is to hit maybe a long iron, contol the trajectory in some interesting ways and also turn the ball.

I understand what you're implying about the old days and a driver but I think that's not really something that does or even should translate into today. I don't hit it far for a low handicapper, never did but hitting a driver into a par 3 like a redan design is just something I don't think is that interesting an idea or concept.

I love all the old stuff and the eras but some things I think have to be reconsidered. This would be one of them, in my opinion. A redan just works better to me as a hole shorter than requiring a driver.

Buggy whips were used 100 years ago all the time but that doesn't exactly mean we should start manufacturing them again.

[JThompson]

Mr. TE Paul - Why don't you try the Biarritz holes at Yale and St. Louis County Club and then tell me that you can reach of them with an iron?  I needed a five-wood at each hole, and I hit a long ball.  

[tonyt]

I tend to agree with TEPaul. A Biarritz is not a hole designed to demand the shape of shot of a Redan. A long Biarritz, whilst providing an area short of the green, demands either length or a lower trajectory running shot to make it onto the putting surface. A redan is a test of shot shaping. I would be happy to have to hit a fairway wood for part of the time, and some long irons, but not a driver every single time.

[TEPaul]

JThompson:

I could definitely see a Biarritz hole as a driver length hole for anyone. It's the type of design that would work well up to that length and club selection (in certain conditions). As I said I don't really go for hitting driver into par 3s but I sure have a few times in the wind on the Biarritz at Fisher's Island. But then a long ball hitter by the name of Ed Gibstein took out a 3 iron and flew it to about the same place I hit my driver. That's golf--and that's fine by me.

But I don't think the same would be as good on a real redan hole. And in case you failed to read the title of this thread it's about a redan (length) hole not a Biarritz.

I have no idea if you're posting anonymously or if JThompson is you're real name. Either way I wish you'd email me and give me your phone number or email address. I'd really like to talk to you JThompson (or whoever you are).

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